WATCH SYSTEMS for a longish voyage

[Scotty_Tradewind]

On a recent long sailing voyage with 4 of us onboard a 38 footer, we used this watch system below with great success.
Have others found other watch systems to their liking?

Day Port Watch Times St’brd Watch
1 ON 12 midnight – 4am OFF
1 OFF 4am – 8am ON
1 ON 8am – 1pm OFF
1 OFF 1pm – 7pm ON
1 ON 7pm – 12 midnight OFF
2 OFF 12 midnight – 4am ON
2 ON 4am – 8am OFF
2 OFF 8am – 1pm ON
2 ON 1pm – 7pm OFF
2 OFF 7pm – 12 midnight ON

Breakfast 7.30 – 8 ish am (immediately before going on watch or just after coming off watch)

Lunch 12.30 – 1 ish (ditto)

Dinner 6.30 – 7 ish (ditto)

In addition coffee time for both watches at 3.30 pm

This was taken from an old Swedish system (described in ‘The Last grain Race’ by Eric Newby). Seems like a good system as each watch is on at different times in successive days. Also every other day each watch gets a 6 hour period (1pm – 7pm)to kip/relax. There are also the 5 hour slots (8am – 1pm & 7pm - midnight) to do the same on alternate days. The night watches 12 midnight 4am & 4am – 8am are mercifully shorter.
We also shared a cabin with a member of the opposite watch which meant that much of the time we had the cabin to ourselves which increased the useable space tremendously.
Interested to hear what others think,
S.

 

[bilbobaggins]

There has been a lot of research into the problems and partial solutions to 'ways of working' on small vessels, principally AIR by French medics.

One conclusion, that seemed to be well-supported by evidence, was that it is better from a counter-sleep deprivation/adaptation aspect that watches be NOT progressive, and that each crewman got his/her kip at similar times on successive days.

I've tried all sorts of watch periods, and am quite happy with 4-hour spells, so long as I can catch some coffee/soup/biscs and a wee-wee during that time. The 4-hours 'off' permits sorting oneself out, having some REM sleep, then getting re-sorted for the next 'watch on'. If there are 3 or more watch-keepers, then one has maybe 8 hours free from watch-keeping, giving opportunity for other things.

I'm sure there are a good handful of 'big girls' blouses' around who whinge at a couple of hours' sea duty. Even when I'm off watch when they're around, I don't get much sleep, for I'm worrying about whether they're actually 'keeping watch' or just sitting there like great lumps.

And what's the whisper in the cockpit that's GUARANTEED to get the skipper, asleep in his bunk below, up on deck in a nanosecond and his kecks, and not have touched the sides on the way up...?

"Should we wake the skipper, or......"

 

[snowleopard]

Most systems I have worked with involved 4 hours during the day and 3 hours at night. I far prefer that to the full 4 hours at night. I have never gone for 2-man watches so with four on board I woud have 1 on 3 off.

For a long passage with 5 on board, I as skipper took one 3 hour watch a day and the rest of the time I was on call. One person would be relieved of watches for 24 or 48 hours and was on full-time cook duty while the other 3 worked 1 on 2 off.

When it's just the 2 of us, SWMBO does approx 6 hours at night and I do the other 18. We both prefer it that way.

 

[Refueler]

If 3 of you on board ... I like to stagger it so 1 is able to double up with another if needed.

I also like the idea of the hours do not add up to 12 - so each person gets rotated over a number of watches to different section of the 24 hrs cycle.

I am not in favour of short rest periods - as over time - that just adds up till everyone is finally so fatigued without knowing it, accidents / mistakes can happen.

 

[Sybarite]

I find that a night watch at 4 hours is a bit long although by default I often end up by doing it. On the other hand I find that I now need less sleep than before to recover and s shorter watches suit me personally. On a transoceanic trip with 4 people I would have say 3 times 3 to 3.5 hour watches covering night times and every 4 days each member of the crew gets an entire night's sleep. During the day the situation would be informal with a least one watchkeeper at all times.

John

 

[maxi77]

One option I would consider with four people is a 6 on 6 off system, as this give good rest periods for the off watch team. Equally when it is quiet the two on watch can split their 6 into two threes, with the other person either preparing food/drinks or resting fully booted and spurred either in the cockpit or saloon.

Such a system gives the off watch team long periods of undisturbed rest which does improve their performance

 

[Neil_Y]

With four we had a 3 on 9 off but you were on call for another 3 hours if needed. This worked really well, plenty of rest and enthusisatic cooks as they had time to fill. This was for an East to West atlantic trip.

I've found that 4 hours is just a little too much at night for me, so with two we sailed 3 on 3 off.

 

[snowleopard]

One option I would consider with four people is a 6 on 6 off system, as this give good rest periods for the off watch team.

How many people would go for that arrangement as opposed to 1-man watches and 3 on 9 off? I've never done 2+ man watches on a cruising yacht.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

It's interesting to hear other views on this.
We continued our regime for 4 days and nights only, as our voyage was 5oonm.

As / Sybarite and Q.Neil Y ..."I've found that 4 hours is just a little too much at night for me, so with two we sailed 3 on 3 off."

I too found the 4 hour watch a difficult one.

Snow Leoperd speaks of the ‘1 on watch, 3 offwatch’.
We always had 2 of us on watch at any time so that one of us could be having a catknap in the saloon, (but ready for action) and we set a kitchen timer to change responsibilities whilst being on watch every hour.
Not easy but it seemed better than other systems we had tried where you may be completely on your own for hours.
We were both half kitted up whilst on watch....we did have a wheelhouse on this boat, so just the trousers, boots + thermals seemed to be o.k. with jacket lifebelt and lifeline at the ready in case needed.

As mentioned in my first posting above, having a different cabin to your partner who shared the watch seemed to us to be extremely helpful.
The crew member who was about to go on watch would be wakened a short time before his watch started and he had the whole space of his cabin to get kitted up and sorted without fighting for space with his watch partner.
He could also have the light on or do other personal things and so not disturb another.
The 6 on 6 off system would be interesting as described by Maxi77 but this would mean that you were always on the same watch routine and we thought the rolling timetable as also mentioned by Refueler would mean that you were not always on the 'dog watch' etc..

Bilbobaggins is right about the skipper..... he does seem to have an ear 'cocked' ....even when snoring.
One night on this trip I mentioned to my watch partner, that ‘a ships CPA seemed a bit too close’. Skipper was at our side in seconds from his slumber!

Also by varying the hours as we did, you will see that there were times in the day when you could do your own thing for many hours and not feel ‘tied’ to the ships routine for a while. So reading, watching out to sea, sleeping on the foredeck all became options to having some lengthy personal time.

 

[PaulJS]

Watches

When I first started working at sea on big ships I worked 4 on - 8 off (theoretically although 3 extra hours per day doing electrical maintenance tended to mess up the 3E's schedule), then in the North Sea we worked 6 on - 6 off which was ok but you never felt completely rested. Now I try to ensure that everyone works 12 on - 12 off with meal breaks etc. I appreciate that on small boats with less crew this would be problematic and that a lot of forumites don't like long night watches, but in my experience if you're properly rested your body clock adjusts remarkably quickly.
Needless to say I've had my fair share of 36 hour watches when things haven't gone quite according to plan!

 

[footsoldier]

I recall this was given a good airing not so long ago, but I'll add my two-pennorth again.

I support snowleopard, I really cannot see why you would need two on watch routinely in a bog-standard yacht, except in exceptional conditions - obviously assuming that everyone is competent watch-keepers. On the odd occasions when I've been obliged to do this, I've found it a complete waste of man-hours and detrimental to the well-being of the crew because it restricts the rest-time otherwise available. If you ever do need an extra pair of hands for a few minutes, you can always shake out the most rested person from below.

Out of all the systems I much prefer 3hrs on, 6 hrs + off. For those of us who have difficulty getting off to sleep, 6hrs gives sufficient time to have a reasonable chance of managing a couple of hours kip, plus do whatever domestic chores.

Any system with 2hr spells I regard as inefficient. Especially at night, by the time you have got your full night-vision, assimilated the rythm of the boat/seas, fixed the traffic patterns in your head, - in other words got up to speed and become fully effective - the watch is already half over.

I can live with systems that require 4 hr day watches, but the downside is that in bad weather that is a helluva long time to be stuck out in the rain and spray, wrestling with the wheel. IMHO the extra hour is disproportionately tiring.

 

[snowleopard]

.... 4 hr day watches, but the downside is that in bad weather that is a helluva long time to be stuck out in the rain and spray, wrestling with the wheel. IMHO the extra hour is disproportionately tiring.

I can understand it for racing but why would anyone sail a cruising boat for pleasure that requires the watchkeeper to steer and doesn't provide protection from spray?

I'm sure that will provoke protests as most AWBs are set up like that but it really isn't necessary.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

"Should we wake the skipper, or......"

Never, ever, ever wake the skipper up!

The last thing you need in a tricky situation is to explain to some half asleep elderly duffer WTF is going on then wait while he procrastinates about what to do!

On private pleasure boats the Skipper is 'selected' purely because he has the cash and time to own a boat, not on the basis of abilty. In contrast the crew are chosen because they're capable (and personable)!

The only time you wake the skipper up is if something needs to be paid for or the heads are blocked!

 

[HinewaisMan]

We’ve done some fair passages, two handed, and find that a formal night watch of 3-hrs on, 3-off over 12 hours works for us – we’ve tried 4/4, 6/6 and they didn’t work. Neither did a rolling watch system – we find getting into the routine of fixed watches is important.

Daytime is flexible – we still run a 3/3 system, but if someone’s wide awake and the other’s sleepy we’re easy.

But, just to contradict the above, one other thought from my offshore racing days, get the night watches working straight away and be anal about them. There’s always the temptation (excitement) on the first night to stay up for a few hours, or a few days later on, to go “Aww, I’m awake, let ‘em have another hour asleep”. Thar lies the road to sleep deprivation – even if you’re just laying awake in your bunk or on the pilot berth, you’re still resting - and it's amazing

 

[srm]

Have worked at sea so know most of the variations of formal watchkeeping, but in the leisure world have not found them to work very well. Probably because passages are too short for people to settle into a proper routine.

My first offshore skipper stopped doing night passages - when asked why he replied that I was the only crew he had ever sailed with who could sleep properly during the day.

I have tried a lot of variations with amateur crews, none of which have been satisfactory. As skipper I would be up for the night - dawn watch, or with a smaller crew take it myself. We eventually found a sequence of:
standby but sleeping / on watch / do not disturb
for two or three hour blocks worked at night, and fairly informal by day. I also tried to match watch times to the individual's normal habit of early morning or late night activity.

This summer with two of us sailing from Plymouth to Orkney we had no formal watch system but would swop over when the other came up, or could call them if tired. At times one of us may come up too early, and be told to go back to bed. Generally we stayed at sea for one or two nights, depending on conditions. If we both seemed tired we stopped. As owner/skipper I got the maintenance jobs, (yes I did strip down the heads at sea and replace a broken engine drive belt) while Tony kept us fed.

This probably worked so well because we are both experienced skippers.

 

[Poignard]

When I worked for a while as engineer on Coe-Metcalfe's coasters, two of us did 5 hours on and five hours off, plus extra work "as necessary". And when you were on watch you had to work, not just stare at the sea! I found it quite tiring and disorientating after the luxury of 4 on/8 off that I had been used to on deep sea ships but old coasting hands seemed quite happy with it.

I would have much preferred keeping the same hours, e.g. 4 on/4 off or 6 on/6 off but different people have different likes and dislikes.

ps I think I would prefer Robin Knox-Johnstone's system. In "A World Of My Own" he says he sometimes slept for 8-10 hours! As an experienced seaman he knew when the chances of hitting anything were so remote as to be negligible.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

“Aww, I’m awake, let ‘em have another hour asleep”. Thar lies the road to sleep deprivation

Take your point but can't say I buy this. If I'm wide awake and enjoying it I will never drag some other poor sod into the wet and cold. Might as well let them get some more Z's. Somehow you always catch up.

 

[footsoldier]

I can understand it for racing but why would anyone sail a cruising boat for pleasure that requires the watchkeeper to steer and doesn't provide protection from spray?

I'm sure that will provoke protests as most AWBs are set up like that but it really isn't necessary.

To clarify, my comment was from the perspective of deliveries, where you have no choice in the matter. The boat is the way it is, - and there are a lot of AWBs that are very wet in a blow. As I typed the comment I had in mind the clear recollection of a miserable 4hr daytime stint in a Biscay F7 at the very exposed wheel position of an AWB that handled like a pig and whose autopilot was unable to cope with the conditions. Three hours were just about tolerable, but the final hour was soul-destroying.

 

[estarzinger]

Four day passages tend to be the exact worst length. For one or two days you can just run on nervous energy and don't need too much sleep, and for +5 days you get your sea legs and get into the groove and start feeling good, but for 4 days you are usually tired and out of sort and don't have your sea legs. We sometimes sail right by destinations 4 days out because we don't want to have to repeat the adaption process - we have skipped Ascension island twice because of this.

I agree with BB's comment and the research that it is best NOT to have a rotating schedule. You adapt quicker and better if you set into one time schedule and keep to it.

With 3 or 4 crew, I would definitely have done one-man watches with someone else always clearly designated as 'standby' in case a second crew is needed on deck. That will be MUCH less fatiguing that having 2 on deck, but certainly not as social and that may or may nor be a consideration.

We and most of the long-term blue water cruisers we know gradually adapt away from the racing 3 or 4 hour schedule to longer 6 hours on/off at night. We find that 3 or 4 hours just does not give us enough settled REM sleep - this may not be so important for the shorter passages (under 5 days) but is for the longer runs. If we had to hand steer, 6 hours probably would not be acceptable but we almost never hand steer on passage.

 

[ChrisE]

Four day passages tend to be the exact worst length. For one or two days you can just run on nervous energy and don't need too much sleep, and for +5 days you get your sea legs and get into the groove and start feeling good, but for 4 days you are usually tired and out of sort and don't have your sea legs. We sometimes sail right by destinations 4 days out because we don't want to have to repeat the adaption process - we have skipped Ascension island twice because of this.

I agree with BB's comment and the research that it is best NOT to have a rotating schedule. You adapt quicker and better if you set into one time schedule and keep to it.

With 3 or 4 crew, I would definitely have done one-man watches with someone else always clearly designated as 'standby' in case a second crew is needed on deck. That will be MUCH less fatiguing that having 2 on deck, but certainly not as social and that may or may nor be a consideration.

We and most of the long-term blue water cruisers we know gradually adapt away from the racing 3 or 4 hour schedule to longer 6 hours on/off at night. We find that 3 or 4 hours just does not give us enough settled REM sleep - this may not be so important for the shorter passages (under 5 days) but is for the longer runs. If we had to hand steer, 6 hours probably would not be acceptable but we almost never hand steer on passage.

I'm interested in your 6 on/off comment for longer voyages. Is this when you are two up? We've always used a 4 on/off schedule and found that do-able, if a little tiring in the 4-5am part of a 2-6am shift. What schedule do you use 6-12, 12-6 or something else?