Vulcan anchor and seagrass. Rubbish?

[sailaboutvic]

I cannot argue with the weight of anchor you have chosen and it is refreshing to find someone who bought a smaller anchor than the old gen anchor they were replacing.

I really cannot (and will not) comment on Vulcan. I've never touched one nor even seen one outside a boat show (remember them) or a marina. I'd love to try one - but I'm not buying one.

To me your comments are invaluable, good in sand, disappointing in weed (but these would be common comments on many (modern) anchors) as so few own one and few comment.

We are commonly defeated in thick weed (one of the problems of weed is that everyone's idea of weed varies) and if our chosen anchorage has weed - we look for the sand patches but if that fails - we don't even try but move on. I'm not surprised that you had problems - but its all about comparison (how do other anchors perform in the same location).

Jonathan

I just posted that dgadee shouldn't anchor under the castle and wsnt joking its very weedy there but it not unusual to see 30 odd boats there , now I can't comment on how well anyone them have set their anchor,Im not a anchor diver but what I can say is we sat some big winds there and some have drag but others having , they can't all have the same anchor ,
So it is possible to anchor and get a good set on weed as I know very well.
So some do boil down to technic and bit of luck too .

 

[sailaboutvic]

What achor did you use?

We have a 20kg Rocna I'm not saying it the best anchor out there what I will say is we happy with it and its the second one we had the other wax 15 kg on the other boat and we anchored all over Greece , Croatia Turkey , as it happen all over the Med .
As you probably know we live on our hook for around nine month each year .

 

[dgadee]

My thoughts ae now a Spade at 20kg and take the 15kg Vulcan back home for the smaller boat. It will do well - as it did before - for west Scotland. And there is no seagrass there (so far as I know). The sizing for the Vulcan claims it is conservative but I now think if you are anchoring for weeks, heavier is better. I have thus changed sides in the sizing debate.

But what a price these Spade anchors are.

 

[sailaboutvic]

My thoughts ae now a Spade at 20kg and take the 15kg Vulcan back home for the smaller boat. It will do well - as it did before - for west Scotland. And there is no seagrass there (so far as I know). The sizing for the Vulcan claims it is conservative but I now think if you are anchoring for weeks, heavier is better. I have thus changed sides in the sizing debate.

But what a price these Spade anchors are.

Stick it on friends of Lefkas marina FB page you sell it , save you taken it back to the UK .

 

[dgadee]

Stick it on friends of Lefkas marina FB page you sell it , save you taken it back to the UK .

Maybe they will read this and not want it! €40 on Ryanair to add it to my luggage. I will put the unused Kobra II on that. Just looked and it is only 12kg. I think I bought that before I got the small Fortress.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Maybe they will read this and not want it! €40 on Ryanair to add it to my luggage. I will put the unused Kobra II on that. Just looked and it is only 12kg. I think I bought that before I got the small Fortress.

I sold my last Rocna on there when I brought my 20kg one I have now , it sold for €100 less then I brought it for and I had loads of people after it .
You may not like the Valcan others do .

 

[dgadee]

I sold my last Rocna on there when I brought my 20kg one I have now , it sold for €100 less then I brought it for and I had loads of people after it .
You may not like the Valcan others do .

Good advice. Will have a look at that site.

 

[noelex]

Thick weed is one of the most challenging substrates. Modern new generation anchors that are otherwise competent in most substrates can still sometimes really struggle in thick weed. I have not personally seen the Vulcan so thanks for your report.

It is disappointing to hear this about the Vulcan, but it is encouraging that you recognise the issue. Unfortunately, in weed I often see anchors performing poorly where the owner is under the mistaken impression the anchor is doing well. In thick weed often an anchor that is just tangled up in weed will provide enough holding power to resist the setting force for mild to moderate wind, for example up to 30 knots. However, once the wind picks up the grip on the weed itself is insufficient and the boat drags:

This is an example of an anchor lying upside down and not working correctly, but the grip from the weed itself is still holding the boat and may often continue to do so up to a moderate wind level:

To hold better and withstand stronger wind the anchor typically needs to be able to penetrate the weed and dig into the substrate below. Choosing an anchor that can do this is an important characteristic of a good primary anchor. Unfortunately, conducting traditional anchor tests in heavy weed is rarely done so this aspect of anchor performance is not evaluated as much as should be. A pity since weed performance is one of the substrate where there is both a significant risk of an otherwise good anchor failing and also perhaps the substrate where there is the greatest differnce bettween anchor models. Even when diving to see how the anchor is performing I find to make an accurate assesment is time consuming. It frequently involves using your fingers to feel down into the weed to judge how well the fluke has buried.

 

[dgadee]

Here's another view. Spoke to very nice woman in Nautilus in Gauvia. She said, in her opinion, no anchor cuts into seagrass. I had asked her about a Delta. She said she would not sell me one and tell me it would work with seagrass. She said the Vulcan was a good anchor.

She then said, in her opinion, it was the chain that holds you in seagrass and that you need to put plenty out. In her opinion my 8mm chain was too light and 10mm would be better. This would still not solve my problems because overnight anchoring is different from being out for the day.

I need a backup anchor anyway so will probably buy a Delta 16kg from her (€190).

What does the panel think?

 

[geem]

Here's another view. Spoke to very nice woman in Nautilus in Gauvia. She said, in her opinion, no anchor cuts into seagrass. I had asked her about a Delta. She said she would not sell me one and tell me it would work with seagrass. She said the Vulcan was a good anchor.

She then said, in her opinion, it was the chain that holds you in seagrass and that you need to put plenty out. In her opinion my 8mm chain was too light and 10mm would be better. This would still not solve my problems because overnight anchoring is different from being out for the day.

I need a backup anchor anyway so will probably buy a Delta 16kg from her (€190).

What does the panel think?

What a load of nonsense. Chain only connects you to the device that holds you. In 40 kts it isnt even touching the bottom so how can it hold you?

 

[dgadee]

What a load of nonsense. Chain only connects you to the device that holds you. In 40 kts it isnt even touching the bottom so how can it hold you?

I think she knew that. She did not suggest that chain would hold in any substantial wind. No anchor/chain would hold in that, seemed to be her view.

 

[dgadee]

What a load of nonsense. Chain only connects you to the device that holds you. In 40 kts it isnt even touching the bottom so how can it hold you?

Ps. Will the Spade I intend to buy hold me in 40 knots in seagrass?

 

[Pete7]

If we followed blindly the advise of some that long term cruisers use big anchors (my first comment would be - where is the data) then big anchors would be difficult to change.

Jonathan, you might be using a light weight anchor, short light chain plus rope, but those other "long term cruisers" are using yachts in the 10-20 tonne range not 7 like yours. Therefore yes they do have 80m of chain and 30+ kgs of anchor. After all I could say "OMG" why are these 7T catamaran sailors so big an anchor compared to mine.

I maintain that a 30kg Mantus has the same hold (if both are set and hold) as a 30kg Delta.

Now if you want me to take you seriously, I need to see some evidence of this please. From what I have seen of the anchor tests over the years, NG anchors have all bettered the Delta, one of the reasons we switched from Delta to Rocna a decade ago. Same weight higher holding power.

Now some people will have a yacht for which a 30kg would be Lewmar's recommendation and some people will have looked at this and though - well if a Mantus is better and there is that fantastic thread on CF 'Pictures of Anchors' which shows how good it is - then being so much better than a Delta - we'll just use a 30kg Mantus. They have had no problems - have you heard of anyone suggesting their Mantus has dragged? So some people will not have oversized and the anchor does not drag.

The focus on size simply means you spend unnecessary money. Jonathan

If the yacht is your home, what's the problem in ensuring that your anchor is the best you can have?

The latest thread on CF was about a detailed study showing that weight in the chain has little benefit once the wind gets up, instead putting the weight into the anchor achieves much better holding. After all you did just this with short piece of light weight chain and rely on the holding power of the anchor.

The Mantus isn't a well known in the UK, old CQRs continue to rule the roost. Your attacks on one make of anchor is wearing a little thin. If you haven't used it extensively, then I will just dismiss your posts as irrelevant with no personal experience. If you buy one and anchored with it for 300 nights, then come back with photos saying it doesn't work, well that would be more believable. Hey you might even like it and keep it as the main . After all 30kgs on your 7T yacht is really noticeable is it, particularly if you have hardly any chain. You're down under aren't you? ye gods you probably have more weight in Lager on board.

At the end of the day, a choice and competition is good for the consumer, that's us. Let the manufacturers continue to compete against each other.

Pete

 

[geem]

Ps. Will the Spade I intend to buy hold me in 40 knots in seagrass?

My Spade held me when it was gusting 50kts last season in Falmouth Harbour, Antigua. There was maybe 150 yachts at anchor when the squall went through. The sea bed is a mixture of coral, sand and sea grass. Not a single boat dragged. As I have said above, if you can get the anchor set, most anchors hold. Most anchors drag when they haven't been set.

 

[geem]

Jonathan, you might be using a light weight anchor, short light chain plus rope, but those other "long term cruisers" are using yachts in the 10-20 tonne range not 7 like yours. Therefore yes they do have 80m of chain and 30+ kgs of anchor. After all I could say "OMG" why are these 7T catamaran sailors so big an anchor compared to mine.


Now if you want me to take you seriously, I need to see some evidence of this please. From what I have seen of the anchor tests over the years, NG anchors have all bettered the Delta, one of the reasons we switched from Delta to Rocna a decade ago. Same weight higher holding power.



If the yacht is your home, what's the problem in ensuring that your anchor is the best you can have?

The latest thread on CF was about a detailed study showing that weight in the chain has little benefit once the wind gets up, instead putting the weight into the anchor achieves much better holding. After all you did just this with short piece of light weight chain and rely on the holding power of the anchor.

The Mantus isn't a well known in the UK, old CQRs continue to rule the roost. Your attacks on one make of anchor is wearing a little thin. If you haven't used it extensively, then I will just dismiss your posts as irrelevant with no personal experience. If you buy one and anchored with it for 300 nights, then come back with photos saying it doesn't work, well that would be more believable. Hey you might even like it and keep it as the main . After all 30kgs on your 7T yacht is really noticeable is it, particularly if you have hardly any chain. You're down under aren't you? ye gods you probably have more weight in Lager on board.

At the end of the day, a choice and competition is good for the consumer, that's us. Let the manufacturers continue to compete against each other.

Pete

With all this talk about Mantus I decided to watch the Matus introduction video of their anchors setting. I was suprised to see how long it took for the Mantus to set. It drags along for some distance before it sets. I guss if it has a shallower angle then its dive to a full set takes longer. In my experience both Spade and Rocna set repeatedly within their own length. Something is different about the Mantus and it appears to be the shallower fluke angle. I have no way of knowing how good the anchor is as it hasnt appeared in any tests against its rivals so guess what? I just bought a new Spade. Not oversized. Its the same weight as the last one and selected straight off the Spade selection chart for the weight of our boat as the last one was several years ago

 

[sailaboutvic]

Ps. Will the Spade I intend to buy hold me in 40 knots in seagrass?

First let me say the women is talking rubbish , she has no idea probably never been on a boat in her life other then to sun bath ,
You seen to want someone to tell you that a spade will cut through Grass and reassure you that your making the right choice ,
That's a decision you have to make its your money , but I can tell you some thing for nothing , you have to be lucky to cut through thick Grass with any anchor other then a fisherman in my view .
we manage to anchor throught grass and set the anchor but there been times when we had to give it a couple of goes and not in the same spot , so maybe the grass wasn't so think where we ended up managing it .
I would suggest you give your anchor a chance , maybe practice a bit more , you may find once you have thing will get better .

 

[dgadee]

Bit extreme to suggest someone has not been on a boat!

What I really want is data and tests. How hard can it be to take 6 anchors to a bed of seagrass and test them in a structured way?

 

[sailaboutvic]

Bit extreme to suggest someone has not been on a boat!

What I really want is data and tests. How hard can it be to take 6 anchors to a bed of seagrass and test them in a structured way?

I have really Been trying to help you ,

Is my posting a bit extreme , maybe, some how I don't think so , I take it she the blonde lady well her hair was type of blonde .
Floriad see the photo .
She the only lady that works for them unless they take more on and she been with them some years , very good at selling people stuff they don't need .

if you want to believe a women who make a statement like it's the chain that hold you rather then people like my self who's been anchoring over 40 years and who lived full time on my hook for many more years that I can remember , that's really up to you .

There no test that I know that's been done on sea grass you can ask people like Neeves and Noelex if they have an option but I guess if be on the same lines you already been given .

This is not to say it applies to you , but over the 30 years we sailed in Greece and around every country in the Med we met many who have arrived from the likes of the UK and Northern Europe who experience on anchoring is mostly muddy rivers ,
where anchor is just a matter of closing your eyes and throwing the anchor in and all will be good only to find they having tons of problem in far off places and mostly it is them not got the experience it needs to anchor on difficulty sea bed and grass is as difficult as it gets .
.
There is nothing wrong with the anchor you got or the size for your boat , if you cant get it to go throught sea grass then don't anchor where there any sea grass and find another spot or bay .

Or buy a spade and hope the next patch of sea grass you anchor on is so thin that the spade will go throught or you could save your money and hope the same with the anchor you have

Sorry if my posting sound snotty but you ask option of sailor who been doing it for years then when a shop keep tell you something you seen to want to believe her then experience people .
Good luck .

 

[dgadee]

If you reread the post you'll see I was asking for feedback, not suggesting she was correct. How would I know how valid her views are? I have no way of knowing.

I have, anyway, already decided to get a 20kg Spade. And, for the present, look for sand and mud. I'm sure my expertise will grow but my confidence in handling seagrass is not great at present.

 

[sailaboutvic]

If you reread the post you'll see I was asking for feedback, not suggesting she was correct. How would I know how valid her views are? I have no way of knowing.

I have, anyway, already decided to get a 20kg Spade. And, for the present, look for sand and mud. I'm sure my expertise will grow but my confidence in handling seagrass is not great at present.

Dgadee agree you ask for feed back and your getting it from different people s with anchoring experience and they all saying the same , sea grass isn't the best sea bed to anchor on .

As for Floriad I know her for some years and can say the conversation I had with her about goods be it AF or a dinghy , it's been out of the sales person book of selling , as soon as you ask her a tech question she off to look up the answer or ringing up Athens who then probably getting the answer from anther sales person .
I once when I there to buy a Tin of mat vanish which they didn't have in stock and she telling me the stain vanish is the same ,
give me a break .

That's Why my comment about her.

You decided to buy a spade , great you should be very happy with it , it's another good anchor .