VP D3 service - warranty - Insurance question

[BartW]

Some will remember that in January this year I had the starboard long block Volvo Penta D3 exchanged under warranty (only 300hrs). To summarize a long story, after a few intermittent “fuel supply” errors, and VP service center visits, they did something wrong while replacing the fuel injectors, and badly damaged the first cylinder, so that the complete long block had to be replaced.
Although the succession of visits to VP service center with my boat gave me some headaches and frustration,
At the end I was very happy with the service as everything was done under warranty, while the original fault (air sucking in the fuel line) was no real Volvo fault.
This engine has done 220 since then without a glitch.

In june this year we had a serious problem with the port engine; during a diving trip, heavy loaded with 8 divers and their stuff, and at high power 3500RPM (engine max is 4000rpm), at a certain moment I noticed that the temp gauge was at max, the engine was fully overheated, I didn’t notice the warning light, it was hidden behind the throttle.
We stopped immediately and discovered that one’s again a hose from the Raw water cooling cirquit had come loose due to the strong pressure caused by a full weed filter (this has happened before a year ago in Croatia on the other engine).
Luckyly this time there was not yet much sea water pumped in the bilge.
After re-fixing the hose, and cleaning the filter, the engine started without a problem, and temp became back normal.
This trip was finished 10 minutes later.
One hour later (engine was almost cold) we started again to another destination, and then after 15 minutes cruising I heard a strange noise coming from that engine. When opening the hatch I noticed that a small string from the serpentine belt came loose and was smashed against the hull at every cycle from the engine. I was able to cut away that string, and continue the trip with a smaller but still working serpentine belt. Hot water has been streaming over this belt !!!???.
We continued the trip and 15 minutes later after a strong WOEF sounding from the engine it stopped promptly. Restarting didn’t help, the engine was completely dead. We limped to the marina and the same evening we dropped the boat at VP service.
They next day they discovered very fast that the screw from the timing belt tensioning pulley was broken, and due to that the timing belt came loose (This timing belt is under a plastic cover on a D3)
Cylinder head and valves were badly damaged, so a complete replacement of the longblock was the best thing they could offer, but as the boat was JUST (one month) out of warranty, they suggested this was going to be a insurance case. I informed the insurance company, but had fear that their reaction was going to delay things, and as all this happened exactly 2 weeks before our 4 weeks summer holiday in Croatia, (planned with family and friends) I didn’t discuss about the warranty versus insurance issue, and confirmed that I would pay the bill while waiting for the insurance to react. The VP service center did a very good job making sure that the boat was repaired before our holiday, the office guy to find and get a new longblock supplied as quick as possible, (first indication of delivery time was 2 months ) and when the block was delivered 3 day’s later, straight from Stockholm, the service engineer did some night and weekend work to replace all items from the old to the new block and put the engine back in the boat.
Just a couple of day’s left for testing the boat in local water before leaving with her to south Croatia (and cruising to Italy ! ). Great respect and big thank you to these guys!!!.

In the mean time, after several phone calls to remind them, the inspectors from insurance only contacted us a month later (we were on holiday, the broken engine block was at VP service center) inspection was done at VP service, 2 more weeks later. (I was not there)
Only now in October after a few phone calls we have been handed the results from the inspection, and conclusion from the insurance company
They will reduce the amount that they will pay me with 3000 euro (I payed 13000 euro) because VP has put in new fuel injectors, while the old ones could have been re-used.
VP comments on this, it is extremely difficult to get the old fuel injectors out of the old block without damage,(re experience with the other engine) so it would be less time consuming and less costly and more reliable to put in new injectors.
The insurance will also deduct 600 euro ,minimum fee, as stated in the contract.
Secondly they will try to recover the rest of the amount from Volvo as this broken nut may not happen after 350 hrs, so should be warranty.

9400 euro should be on my account by now

Now these are my questions:
1) Should I try to get that remaining 3000euro from the insurance company, it was a VP decision not mine, that they have put in new injectors, to be the most cost effective repair.
2) Should I try to get something from Volvo while this seems more a warranty issue
3) The insurance inspector was not convinced that the broken screw had something to do with the overheating, no part of the engine looked overheated pure coincidence they say. Now I don’t believe this, there was a definite succession of events before final shut down.
4) I am mad at these inspectors, they told me that they want to be involved BEFORE repair is done , they were informed the same day that VP discovered the broken cylinder head, but they reacted with much delay, Should I react on this ?


Or should I just forget about it. After all we had beautiful holiday (s) sinds then, and 170 hours on the counter of that new engine since june ! And There are now two almost new engines in my boat while all this has cost me only 3600 euro. (live is too short and more important things to do…. )
What do the technical and legal specialists think ?

I didn’t want to go much in detail to make the story as short as possible, would be glad to give more detail. I’m sorry for the bad English wording.

 

[AndieMac]

Thanks for the explanation of the problem Bart. I was curious at the time as to what had transpired with the port motor prior to the Croatia cruise.

All good info for other D3 owners.

Regarding the insurance company.......it seems pretty much par for course compared to recent claims that have been processed locally over here.

To take it any further, will it mean legal action (and cost) from you?

 

[BartW]

Regarding the insurance company.......it seems pretty much par for course compared to recent claims that have been processed locally over here.

To take it any further, will it mean legal action (and cost) from you?

I didn't post this info before as it was still in consideration at the insurance company.

I also have a insurance contract "legal assistance" at the same broker, but at a different insurance company, so some letters from my sollicitor or legal action would cost me nothing, but I am hesitating of doing this,
The boat insurance company might become upset, and cancell my contract next year, so then it starts all over again, looking for another reliable insurer etc etc ...

I don't like these things and find it a waist of time, less time for boating
what would you do ?

 

[DAKA]

Your Insurers have been generous to agree substantial payment towards a mechanical failure , (on the basis of a flimsy link to accidental filter blockage.?)

If the boat was bought in the UK then the warranty issue is a red herring and I assume Belgium also has similar consumer laws?

Under sale of goods act the engine should last at least 6 years, therefore many warranties include 72 months cover for major components , worth another read of your warranty.

Even if there is no mention of 72 months cover for major parts Volvo Penta know their obligations under the sale of goods act and if challenged I would expect Volvo Penta to pay for full repairs less a token gesture for betterment.

Of course this will mean a lot of heart ache for you to pursuit it.

The easiest way would be to explain the injectors to your insurers along with a letter from Volvo Penta in the hope they chuck another £3000 in, other wise let it go as life is too short for personal crusades for justice.
Been their twice now , won both times but I wouldnt go there for £3000.

 

[Chris_d]

I'd take the deal, lifes too short etc... I am slightly surprised they paid at all given that checking the raw water filter is a reccomended daily check.

 

[BartW]

Even if there is no mention of 72 months cover for major parts Volvo Penta know their obligations under the sale of goods act and if challenged I would expect Volvo Penta to pay for full repairs less a token gesture for betterment.

thats what the insurance company is going for, says their report

Your Insurers have been generous to agree substantial payment towards a mechanical failure , (on the basis of a flimsy link to accidental filter blockage.?)

they payed me, even while they believe they have a strong case against Volvo, so Volvo should have taken the cost

let it go as life is too short for personal crusades for justice.

thats my sentiment aswell,

thanks for taking time to read this and give your comments !

 

[mm1]

Hi cut your losses & sell the Bl-----DY thing,i think you have been very lucky with your insurer,i think i would have gone after V P,mm1.

 

[DAKA]

Forensic report.

In an ideal world you would organise a forensic report on your engine failure with a company such as Mintons.
Seeing as I dont expect you want to throw £10 000 away , perhaps you could ask Volvo Penta for their report they did on your last engine because it sounds to be the same underlying issue to me.
In the mean time here is my virtual forensic report.

On removal of the head cylinder 5 showed signs of excessive wear, with scouring , most likely due to over heating.
All 5 cylinder heads showed evidence of hitting the valves.

The cam shaft showed signs of bluing around the main bearing, clear evidence of overheating.
The cam belt tensioner bolt failed , beaching marks on the ductile rupture indicated the failure was not from a single catastrophe.
The cam tensioners are a known source of trouble in the Volvo D5 range.
Once the cam belt tensioner failed the engine timing was immediately out of synchronisation and the pistons collided with the Valves, at 3000-4000 rpm this was terminal, a bit like a hand grenade being thrown into the engine.
The engine was violently shaken , engine mounts will have taken the blunt of the catastrophe.
As the engine was violently shaken the raw water cooling hose was dislodged.

Further evidence can be seen in two areas
The rubber engine mount bushings painted green show signs of cracked paint and recent movement.
Around the engine mounts where they are attached to the GRP, there is evidence of stress cracking in the GRP and under the stringer.

On the recent engine failure the stress cracks are not yet apparent but will become visible in 3-6 months time.

What can you do to prevent a reoccurrence .

1)contact Volvo car dealer and ask them what they did to the D5 tensioner recall
2)post on the forum to see if there is any reason why you cant upgrade your jabsco raw water pump to the same one that is fitted to the D6.

 

[volvopaul]

In my opinion its not the insurers that should have paid up.

The cam belt tensioner bolt is purely a mechanical defect and should have been made good by volvo as this is the engine that had a new long block, obviously the engine parts from the first block would have been fitted to the new block, maybe the bolt was incorrectly case hardened, or not torqued correctly stretching the threads, eventually it let go allowing the cam belt to float, and go out of time.

As said by DAKA if your happy at what you have been paid out the lifes too short.

Not sure id have been happy about new injectors just because they couldnt remove the old ones from the mashed up head, at least they should have removed them and sent for testing first to make shure there good or bad.

Not sure about the 72 months major parts warranty, does this cover labour too.

Its 24 months here in the uk and thats if your lucky!

One for woodie 1000 here, id be looking at the 72 months lapse in your case.

My bosch dealer always quotes that the injector is only a warrantable if the fuel thats fed into it is of 100% quality, in other words, if the fuel has water in it and is dirty then why should the dealer warrant the injector right from the start of either a new unit, or in a new engine.

The d3 has been renown for problems since its birth, thats why there is a new version out.

In my opinion volvo should have stepped away from the d3 as its a car engine with belt driven cams, belts and pulleys dont work well in the marine environment we all know that from the aq171 days when they used the 740 car engine.

 

[DAKA]

Not sure about the 72 months major parts warranty, does this cover labour too.

Its 24 months here in the uk and thats if your lucky!

Not sure where I can get hold of a VP warranty to read one but the Cummins-mercruiser range have 6 years (have done since Barrus days of the 90's)
surely Volvo Penta wouldnt get away with only giving 2 years when Cummins-Mercruiser give 6 ??

http://www.cmdmarine.com/documents/4081872_0708.pdf

 

[BartW]

Not sure where I can get hold of a VP warranty to read one

the shapter about warranty in the manual say's one year, and extendable to two years if you register the engines at Volvo, and if you do the first service after 50hrs at a VP service center,
BUT
only applicable for engines used for pleasure applications,
engines used for professional applications have only one year warranty.

They Volvo guy's told me that they could have refused my 2 year warranty (problem in winter with the first engine) as the boat is registered on my company, but as it is only used for pleasure, they confirmed the 2 year waranty.

I have no knowledge about how all this interferes with consumer protection laws etc...

 

[BartW]

The cam belt tensioner bolt is purely a mechanical defect and should have been made good by volvo as this is the engine that had a new long block, obviously the engine parts from the first block would have been fitted to the new block, maybe the bolt was incorrectly case hardened, or not torqued correctly stretching the threads, eventually it let go allowing the cam belt to float, and go out of time.

I have to correct here,
it was not the engine that had the new longblock,
it was the original engine with 350hrs on the counter that broke here, We never had a problem before with this engine

There is a detail in the succession of events that makes me think:

-first the overheating
-then little later a damaged serpentine belt, must have had something to do with the overheating, because the serpentine belt has always been looking impeccable, never noticed any wear nor damage on it.
-AND THEN:
when the engine failed, it suddenly stopped, not with a hard bang nor explosive sound, but with a soft well audible WOEF,
- AND THEN:
when I tryed to re-start this engine, I could hear that the starter engine could not turn the engine around, the engine seemed completely blocked !
-AND THEN
after a 2nd or third atempt, the engine was turning easy and completely free again (no ignition ofcause)
- It Seems to me that
the tensioner pully bolt broke, due to the force from the starter motor on the crancshaft, while the camshaft was stuck, so this bolt was the weakest part in block, and it broke due to the force from the starter engine ?
VP service guy confirmed that the Camshaft was bend, and could not turn anymore
- So when this bolt was broken, the timing belt was released, and the crancshaft could turn easy and free again,

Would like to hear your opinion on this, The insurance inspector nor VP service gave comments on this hepothesis.
for them the broken bolt is the cause of the engine failure.

In my opinion volvo should have stepped away from the d3 as its a engine with belt driven cams, belts and pulleys dont work well in the marine environment

fully agree with you on that, a timing chain would have been much much more reliable and much better in a boat then an belt, but you probably know why they are using belts in car engines.

But the D3 is for my boat the best and only (Diesel) alternative, small, powerfull and lightweight, and the engine has a real sporty behaviour.
Remember I tow her on a trailer !

I have read a lot about the issues of the D3 here on this forum, but I can also see that this engine is very much used in the 28ft to 35ft boat segment, and it still offered in many new boats. There are so many D3's around, so I can't believe that VP can afford continuing problems with the D3.

Perhaps you have other info or more details; but I have been told that there is a new D3 because the orriginal car engine block has had an upgrade/redesign, and not because the marine version has continuing problems.

thanks for your comments!

 

[BartW]

On removal of the head cylinder 5 showed signs of excessive wear, with scouring , most likely due to over heating.

The cam shaft showed signs of bluing around the main bearing, clear evidence of overheating.

the insurance inspector sayd there is absolutely no sign of overheating of not a single part inside the engine. Ofcause I have no evidence of this persons expertise, he did not use much time to investigate the engine

The cam tensioners are a known source of trouble in the Volvo D5 range.

do you know this for real ?
The insurance guy mentioned about this in his report, but that was the first time ever I heard about it, re this forum, diesel boat forum, ...

2)post on the forum to see if there is any reason why you cant upgrade your jabsco raw water pump to the same one that is fitted to the D6.

I think the raw water pump is OK (very strong !)
I have considered to place a bigger and better weed filter , but space in the engine room is so limitted.
Just after the repair I have placed a beeper alarm on the automatic bilge pump, with a delay of 10 seconds, so that I get a alarm if the pump is running for more then 10 seconds (when that hose is loose again, and seawater is pumped in the bilge)
now I also inspect or clean the weed filter a lot more often, and every time when we have seen weed or debris in the water.

 

[BartW]

I am slightly surprised they paid at all given that checking the raw water filter is a reccomended daily check.

they asked about that, and I could confirm that we regularly check this weed filter, after the incident we had last year: http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212789

but I also remember that I noticed a lot of weed that day on the water surface, but ofcause didn't stop my trip for cleaning the filter

now we inspect the filter even more regulary, (usually it is completely empty)
and considered to place a better, bigger type.

 

[DAKA]

Just do a search for Volvo D5 engines, the forums are full of cam tensioners breaking before the first cam belt change is due.

As I suggested ask a Volvo car main dealer.
12 months ago there was a D5 recall for a belt tensioner.

I dont know much more hence my suggestion to ask a volvo car main dealer.

The d6 raw water pump is 1 1/2 inches longer and will push more water round.

Pistons hitting valves wouldnt explode as such.
once stopped it is possible it would start again to get you home as long as the cam belt settled back in place.

In my opinion you shouldnt be concentrating on blocked filters, there will be loads of idiots out there that have gone several miles with seacocks closed, it doesnt always write an engine off, chances of writing two off are slim !

 

[DAKA]

Just as an after thought , if I am wrong both raw water impellors will have been melted with vanes stuck in the cooler.

If I am right then both raw water impellers will be good as new.

Did you get chance to see the old ones ?
Did they even bother to fit new ones and charge extra for fishing the old vanes out ?

 

[PaulGooch]

Pistons hitting valves wouldnt explode as such.

Depending on the engine, new valves might fix it. On other engines, the valves would be bent, guides split, cam broken and head written off. Very rare to damage the bottom end, although i have seen a snapped valve head driven into the top of a piston, on edge.

once stopped it is possible it would start again to get you home as long as the cam belt settled back in place.

If the belt tensioner let go, there's no chance of it restarting.

In my opinion you shouldnt be concentrating on blocked filters, there will be loads of idiots out there that have gone several miles with seacocks closed, it doesnt always write an engine off, chances of writing two off are slim !

I agree.

Just as an after thought , if I am wrong both raw water impellors will have been melted with vanes stuck in the cooler.

If I am right then both raw water impellers will be good as new.

Did you get chance to see the old ones ?
Did they even bother to fit new ones and charge extra for fishing the old vanes out ?

Good point, which i'd also agree with. The new owner of a Mitchell, two berths from me, set off for his home marina in his new boat a couple of weeks ago. Unfortunately, he'd forgotten to open the engine seacock. He melted the impeller and incinerated the exhaust hose, but the engine was fine.

 

[volvopaul]

I have to correct here,
it was not the engine that had the new longblock,
it was the original engine with 350hrs on the counter that broke here, We never had a problem before with this engine

There is a detail in the succession of events that makes me think:

-first the overheating
-then little later a damaged serpentine belt, must have had something to do with the overheating, because the serpentine belt has always been looking impeccable, never noticed any wear nor damage on it.
-AND THEN:
when the engine failed, it suddenly stopped, not with a hard bang nor explosive sound, but with a soft well audible WOEF,
- AND THEN:
when I tryed to re-start this engine, I could hear that the starter engine could not turn the engine around, the engine seemed completely blocked !
-AND THEN
after a 2nd or third atempt, the engine was turning easy and completely free again (no ignition ofcause)
- It Seems to me that
the tensioner pully bolt broke, due to the force from the starter motor on the crancshaft, while the camshaft was stuck, so this bolt was the weakest part in block, and it broke due to the force from the starter engine ?
VP service guy confirmed that the Camshaft was bend, and could not turn anymore
- So when this bolt was broken, the timing belt was released, and the crancshaft could turn easy and free again,

Would like to hear your opinion on this, The insurance inspector nor VP service gave comments on this hepothesis.
for them the broken bolt is the cause of the engine failure.



fully agree with you on that, a timing chain would have been much much more reliable and much better in a boat then an belt, but you probably know why they are using belts in car engines.

But the D3 is for my boat the best and only (Diesel) alternative, small, powerfull and lightweight, and the engine has a real sporty behaviour.
Remember I tow her on a trailer !

I have read a lot about the issues of the D3 here on this forum, but I can also see that this engine is very much used in the 28ft to 35ft boat segment, and it still offered in many new boats. There are so many D3's around, so I can't believe that VP can afford continuing problems with the D3.

Perhaps you have other info or more details; but I have been told that there is a new D3 because the orriginal car engine block has had an upgrade/redesign, and not because the marine version has continuing problems.

thanks for your comments!

I would be asking why the camshaft broke as its a part that doesnt do work that can relate to a sudden stop of rotation unless say a valve spring jams or maybe the common rail pump seizes up, due to poor fuel in the gears of the pump or the relief valve sticking shut, if this is the case this would cause the cam drive belt to shear its teeth untill the engine stops.

It sounds to me that you maybe better off allowing an independent engineer to look at the parts from the engine and report his unbiased findings, all this is over 3k though so probably not worth the effort.

 

[DAKA]

If the belt tensioner let go, there's no chance of it restarting.

The belt is hand tight without the tensioner, the tensioner is for taking up the slack above 2000 rpm

Even with 3 pots it would start if the belt settled back down to rest in the right place, there is no reason to assume it didnt.

I admit there is a lot of guess work here but we are clearly on a similar wave length, its a shame we cant get hold of the engine or at least photos of the cam, big / little ends and above all a photo of the tensioner bolt.

If I had a D3 with 300 hours I think my tensioner bolt would be replaced this weekend and the originals tested under load.

There is clear evidence that we are right............

If the engine overheated due to lack of cooling water then why isnt there evidence of scouring on at least pot 5.

Usual way an engine heat seize is due to expansion , the piston will get tighter and tighter in the cylinder as it is squeezed, usually starts with the pot furthest away from the cold coolant. there is nt any scouring which indicates the engine had adequate cooling until the end.

 

[BartW]

Just as an after thought , if I am wrong both raw water impellors will have been melted with vanes stuck in the cooler.

well here is a small misunderstanding,

we had two occasions where the raw water filter was full of weed, so that the water pressure in the filter increased, and a raw water hose from that filter was disconnected.

first time last year in Croatia, without any succesive issues, (see link in previous reply)

and a second time this summer, with a succession of events discribed in this thread. (despite the fact that we increased the tension on these hose clamps last year.)

In both occasions there was nothing wrong with the impellors (inspected by myself and VP),
after this hose was disconnected, raw water was pumped in the boat

Yes i know, a very dangerous situation, in both occasions the boat could have sinked.