Volvo Penta Technical Support

[jamesensor]

Mr Tulloch who is Volvo Penta`s technical support executive at Watford refuses to supply me with the company`s approved procedures for winterisation. The reason that I need that is that RKMarine a Volvo dealer at Hamble failed to do more than change the oil last winter, although paid £290. As a direct result fresh water which had been probably sprayed up the exhaust pipe by an operative at Universal Marine in Sarisbury whilst removing fouling rusted the cylinders and seized. The engine is now judged beyond economic repair and the insurers GJW Direct refuse to cover engines against water damage. Neither firm will assist and Mr Tulloch washes his hands off the matter claiming that Volvo cannot specify what dealers do or do not do. He suggests that Mr Kimmersh at RK Marine will supply a list. Does anyone have any helpful advice as how best to get someone to contribute to paying for the damage?

 

[Aeolus]

I've got Volvo's Laying Up and Launching Guide for Diesel and Petrol Engines, a 27 page brochure with their recommendations for laying up etc.

If that is of interest, PM me your e-mail address and I'll send you a pdf copy.

 

[jamesensor]

That would be very helpful Jonathan. email is stratvis@aol.com

It is very hard to pin anyone down as nobody will accept any responsibilty - around the Solent at least it seems - for seeing that work is properly done consistent to their £90 an hour charging rates.

 

[scottie]

what engine do youhave and in what kind of boat

look in your owners book for lay up details

was the winterisation done in or out of the water

most facilities do not like engines run out of the water and may even ban them from being run ashore

 

[gandy]

We winterised our own engine, but nothing in Volvo's procedures would have protected against fresh water being sprayed into the exhaust afterwards.

 

[Sailfree]

Welcome to the club - when it goes wrong Volvo does not want to know.

Fortunately boat manufacturers are becoming more aware of this and now more have changed to Yanmar as the engine of choice in recent years.

I am sure that Yanmar have their own few problems but wonder if I am typical 2 new boats with Volvos nothing but problems for 6 years last boat with Yanmar no problem in 3 years and 1000hrs. Ours have been charter boats and that does means that we find out any weaknesses sooner.

I cannot believe that the message is not getting through to Volvo and that they change their ways but it appears not so far.

How many like me discarded choosing good boats like X boat, Elan & Arcona just because they only fitted Volvo engines?

 

[jamesensor]

My next engine is a Kubota, mainly because the Hamble Yanmar dealer who charges £90 an hour plus VAT has refused to provide a written quote. He barely bothered to come off the phone, when I went to his tiny ioffice by the Elephant. Barrus promised to find another supplier, but none of them will sell out of territory. They are apparently looking for additions to their network in the Solent.

A previous maintenance check of leaking fuel by a Volvo dealer led to a fuel line being repaired with sticky tape. When the boat had to be rescued by a lifeboat in the Bristol Channel I refused to pay, especially as no invoice was provided. At the subsequent hearing the Judge awarded crew members £1000 in anxiety damages. As a youngster he had seen boats wreck on the notorious North Cornish shore. Mr Tulloch at Volvo Penta did nothing and the dealer still operates on the River Avon - minus some stock collected and sold by Bailiffs.

Engine winterisation is surely an insurance policy to protect damage to engines over the winter. If the engine were run up and warmed, water would be exhausted from all parts of it. If oil is placed in the cylinders, it is unlikely to rust. The fouling was removed immediately before winterisation. I expected a dealer to do a professional job.

None of this was done - because Kimmersh claimed that his workman could not find the key and averred that he was correct to walk off , charge the full bill and not alert me to the slipshod approach. Then as he realised that this obviously sounded bad he changed his story saying that Universal would not permit RK to run the engine. Universal denies this although they will not admit that they sprayed fresh water into the engine. The engine seizure was discovered when I tried to start the engine onshore, without hindrance from the yard. Kimmersh of RK has not even bothered to visit it although it is barely 2 miles from his dealership. Nor has he offerred a repair or made any amends. Three boats in a line on the hard at Universal all engines ruined by water ingress. Quite a coincidence?.

 

[scottie]

how do you know water was sprayed into the exhaust

 

[Aja]

On reflection, I think a bit of care as to what is being alledged here.

Donald

 

[jamesensor]

I personally saw the water pour out of the exhaust tubing - there were 10-20 litres which poured out at the engine end when the hose was disconnected from the engine. Mr Mitchell, the managing director of Hamble Yacht Services which now owns Universal has personally assured me that no protective steps have ever been taken to block exhaust outlets or other inlets or outlets when boats are being pressure washed in his yards around the Hamble.

In this case fresh water had come right past the swan neck and into the combustion chamber and cylinders. I know that it was fresh as I personally tasted it. It must I feel have been under considerable pressure, to advance so far. As it is a traditional hull shape the exhaust outlet , some 2 inches across points directly downwards about 12 foot above the ground.

I am very familiar with the law of libel which is why I have stated an opinion as to the source of the water and stated that in my own personal view it is a probable cause. Legal judgements in civil cases are normally made on the balance of probability, so one has to search for other explanations for the damage that are more probable. I would welcome any alternative suggestion as to how three boats, the only ones whose owners I have spoken to all had engines penetrated by water in sufficient quantity to cause them to seize during one winter lay-up. Any reader is naturally entitled to draw his own conclusions as to how this may have happenned. In my case I can show the result as the discarded engine is still available for inspection. Would anyone like a damaged Volvo 203O? I have been careful to present facts that I have observed and merely to state as opinions as to what might have caused them. There is any case a public interest defence to this report as other boat owners may consider this useful input as to whether or not to employ unsupervised labourers to clean and protect their boats and engines, in an environment where the manufacturer is so disinterested.

 

[Sailfree]

Interesting.

When my Volvo engine siezed at 13 months and Volvo wanted nothing to do with it one of the comments on the rebuild was whether the exhaust needed a swan neck as there were signs of rust high up in the exhast (not the cause of the problem though).

I had not considered the consequences of pressure washing.

 

[ITH]

You can access the publications relating to your engine on the Volvo Penta marine engine web site:

http://www.volvo.com/volvopenta/global/en-gb/marineengines/out_of_production_engines/

VP has to be concerned about its reputation, and with that in mind you might also think about involving their Press Relations person:

ann-charlotte.emegard@volvo.com

Just a thought.

 

[jamesensor]

Local engine suppliers including those for Kubota and Volvo have all been very ready to assert that the loss of the engine is my own fault. Explanations put forward usually include.

1 That the design of the swan neck is at fault
2 That the engine must have been turned over without starting whilst in the water with the seacock for the water intake open

Both seem a little improbable as

1 The boat is more than 30 years old and has not had any previous mishap of this nature
2 the water in the exhaust system was most definitely fresh as checked by myself, a mechanic and a surveyor, independently.

When I queried the mechanic working for an engine supplier located in the same yard, as to how many seized engines he had replaced, he suddenly became uncharacteristically coy. He has not got my replacement business.

Has any Sherlock Holmes out there got any better ideas?

 

[jamesensor]

I appreciate that there must be fairly frequent engine seizures through water ingress from all causes or insurers such as GJW Direct would not seek to exclude such damage from their policies. Not being privy to insurance data, I have no accurate idea of the frequency. But if it is affects one in ten thousand engines in an average winter, then the statistical probability of finding three boats in a line with such damage in a single yard is one in a trillion. If it is as frequent as 1 in a thousand then it would be one in a billion. This is neither an allegation nor an alledgation but simple mathematics.

 

[scottie]

the only way that this ammount of damage could have been avoided is if shorty after the water ingress took place it was removed
if the engine had been started with the water in it it would have a hydraulic lock up and most likely serious damage would have resulted although it is unlikely that the engine would have turned over at all.

there are several way water can get into an engine but without any other details the water hose seems a likely cause

however this would not be the original engine in a 30 year old boat

if your car was damaged by a car wash would you blame the car maker

 

[pvb]

Helpful advice...

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone have any helpful advice as how best to get someone to contribute to paying for the damage?

[/ QUOTE ]Had you considered Small Claims Court action against the dealer and the marina jointly, then let the Court decide which (if any) was to blame? Your argument re the odds of 3 boats suffering seizure through water ingress is compelling, and should help your case.

 

[Richard10002]

Re: Helpful advice...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone have any helpful advice as how best to get someone to contribute to paying for the damage?

[/ QUOTE ]Had you considered Small Claims Court action against the dealer and the marina jointly, then let the Court decide which (if any) was to blame?

[/ QUOTE ]

My thoughts exactly. If someone is intent on telling you it wasnt their fault, and you think it was, you need to stop messing about with forums, and get a summons issued. This will focus their minds, confirm that you are not willing to be fobbed off like other people and, if it gets to Court, you will have the chance to present your case, and a judge will decide.

It is entirely possible that, as soon as they receive the summons, they may start playing ball.

 

[PeterGibbs]

This is a very distrubing case, and empasises the points I made recently on this site - namely, to put all instructions to marine engineers in writing, and supervise personally as much of the work as possible.

James, in your case, it seems that no parties to the handling of the boat will cooperate, so you will have to instruct an independent engineer for the purpose of ascribing fault and blame. He will probabaly come from another site, otherwise his views will tend to be, shall we say, tainted. Armed with this and a threat to take proceedings, you can call on the relevant party to cooperate. In the likely event (such is much of the marine industry) that you do not even get a reply, serve a 14 days notice by recorded delivery then lay the papers before the small claims court. Your assessor will have to be prepared to speak before the judge. It will help a lot that you can demonstrate the supplier did not perform as required by the manufacturer's handbook. Paper trails - judges love them! You will also have had to offer the faulty party a full chance to make good before you will get judgement in your favour.

Your claim will be the maximum, of course, including loss of amenity whilst this all went on. But there may well be mitigation aginst you as the engine/installation is not new.

Assuming judgement in your favour, then it's a question of whether the defendant will actually make recompense, most will make small payments and muck you around, forcing more action and baliffs. Some are men of straw and will never make amends.

Insurance will likely not feature in this settlement, as you are discovering.

A solicitor will tell you, as you may know, that the law is a roulette game, and your costs may exceed your recoveries unless you can show clearly how the loss arose.

I am not aware of any useful intervention in the form of a engineering industry panel that would assist you.

It is a pity that the engine manufacturer will not assist in any way, but if it comes to it, a call from your solicitor to the engine supplier, with the insinuation of bad publicity for not co-operating, may gain you some support that can be used in the small claims court. You'll need a solicitor who likes a challenge, not a half asleep property conveyancer....

Good luck.

Peter Gibbs

 

[jamesensor]

Your analogy does not appear to fit the circumstances very logically.

I hold Volvo Penta to blame for failing to discipline their dealers into following specified procedures - in my case to protect an engine against moisture ingress specifically over the winter - and taking no notice of Owners who seek their assistance in bringing dealers who have been slipshod and overcharged for work not carried out into line. The Motor Manufacturers long ago recognised that their repeat business was heavily dependent upon having a capable and honest network of dealers and took necessary steps to weed out the rogues. Volvo Penta takes no interest in this. If I had paid a car dealer £290 to lay up and protect my car for six months, and he had simply changed the oil, I would expect the car manufacturer to investigate. I know from direct experience that they do exactly this in similar cases of dealer negligence or over-charging. They have learned the value to their future business prospects of policing their networks. I put precisely this point to Mr Tulloch but he would have none of it. That is why I have now joined the growing Club of British boat owners who will never buy another boat with a Volvo engine.

 

[pvb]

Costs...

[ QUOTE ]
A solicitor will tell you, as you may know, that the law is a roulette game, and your costs may exceed your recoveries unless you can show clearly how the loss arose.

[/ QUOTE ]There's no need to use a solicitor, so costs will be minimal. All that's needed to start proceedings is a simple statement of the claim. There's lots of free advice on the internet on how to do this. An engineer's report would help support the claim.

Over the years, I've issued DIY court action against a variety of large companies which didn't do what they promised. In every case, I've been paid in full without once needing to actually enter a courtroom (although one High St bank didn't offer to pay until I was sitting in the waiting room just before the scheduled court session).