Volvo Penta Oil Cooler price £1,611 Other make (Bowman) for same job £75

[superheat6k]

Yes really. Volvo Penta price for a new gearbox oil cooler £1,611.60 inc vat

(See recent thread re TAMD60C oil cooler leak - couldn't fix it)

EJ Bowman, for a New and better made oil cooler to do the same job £75 inc vat

OK I have had to order a few minor adaptors and fittings, so about £100 spent

But come on VP over 16 times the price !!! GET REAL

Looking forward to my visit to the VP stand at the Boatshow tomorrow.

 

[pan]

Wow... we all expect that manufacturers original parts are more expensive (profit) but that is crazy, please let us know what VP have to say tomorrow & update on your conversion.
Pan

 

[Latestarter1]

Yes really. Volvo Penta price for a new gearbox oil cooler £1,611.60 inc vat

(See recent thread re TAMD60C oil cooler leak - couldn't fix it)

EJ Bowman, for a New and better made oil cooler to do the same job £75 inc vat

OK I have had to order a few minor adaptors and fittings, so about £100 spent

But come on VP over 16 times the price !!! GET REAL

Looking forward to my visit to the VP stand at the Boatshow tomorrow.

Not really sure why you are getting so het up??

I am certainly no Green engine man and you are perfectly correct that the Bowman units are of good quality..........However what point is there beating up on Volvo Penta you will change nothing. If it pleases you to waste the effort punching pillows so be it.

#1 From pricing perspective sounds like you have chosen the somewhat Mickey Mouse Bowman DC120 oil cooler, which would certainly not be my choice for your installation, personally I would have specified a proper high quality EH 100 which is somewhat more expensive at £240 making comparison a little more valid.

#2 Not defending Volvo at all however as I have said what point is there beating up on them?? By specifing VP boaters have have enabled them to build up a very strong dealer network and leading status with boat OEM's, however all that comes at a price and dealers require decent margin to subsidise highly cyclic seasonal market and provide comprehensive first pick parts abailability. Parts sitting on the shelf cost $$, particularly items which have a low turnover. All manufacturers have the same pricing model, you simply cannot have high levels of availability for low volume geriatric engines AND low cost.

#3 In the late 90's Volvo put VP up for sale and there were no takers as margins were poor..

 

[superheat6k]

Look I understand some of the comments, but the level of mark up is by any measure extreme. So is Bowman high quality or Mickey Mouse, one or the other surely ?

 

[pan]

Whilst I accept Latestarter's point of view, clearly Bowman are also a commercial outfit & also have to make a profit, taking his suggestion of the £240 model we can assume that there is approx £100 profit suggesting the maximum cost is about £140. VP are a very large organisation & can command lower cost manufacturing, so would assume their cost would be less than £140, which between them & dealer there is over £1,450 gross margin. Modern distribution enables manufacturers to have a european distribution centre, which is able to ensure delivery within 2/3 days, so only VP should need to hold 'parts on shelf' not the dealer.

As regards 'beating up Volvo Penta', although as you say it will make no difference, who else should customers make their complaint to & if customers don't pass their dissatisfaction onto the supplier how are they going to make changes (listen to your customers, is vital in business)

One of the first signs of a business on the road to failure, is massively increasing prices trying to cover cost inefficiencies within the organisation, rather than deal with the problem (suppose that also applies to UK as well!)

None of the above, of course, will change anything until the cost of maintaining engines becomes so prohibitive that the market collapses & we will all become 'raggies'!

Pan..

 

[oldgit]

It would appear that the cost of heat exchangers spares are bone of contention over their entire range of older marine engines.
Difficult one for Volvo.
In my case the internal heat exchanger matrix for the engines on my AQD40A was nearly £900 each.
However the fact that major critical spares are still available for 35 year old engine is pretty impressive.
Name me one car builder with a track record like that.
Basically good on VP for supply spares for ancient engines.Whatever the price.

 

[Trundlebug]

However the fact that major critical spares are still available for 35 year old engine is pretty impressive.
Name me one car builder with a track record like that.

Well in the past I could have said Rover Cars, for the (old) Mini which was still being sold with the A series engine 45 years after introduction.
Or maybe Land Rover (Defender) although maybe not engine parts

Pedant

 

[springer]

OP be aware that if oil cooler end seals, o-rings, leak, gearbox oil will be ejected down the exhaust leading to catastrophic gearbox failure. By chosing an alternative cooler you would be accepting that risk. VP supplied cooler, places risk with VP and you can be sure they have made certain they will not have failures. (TAMD60C/MG502 early installations had a number of gearbox failures during early 1980s for this reason, oil cooler was then upgraded. Not attempting to justify pricing position, just pointing out possible risk.
Good luck with any discussions with VP.

 

[julians]

We just had to replace the intercooler and starter motor on a d4, the bill was fairly eye watering.

IMO there is no justification for these sort of prices other than the fact that there is no competition (ie no pattern parts), so you can charge what you like.

 

[Latestarter1]

Whilst I accept Latestarter's point of view, clearly Bowman are also a commercial outfit & also have to make a profit, taking his suggestion of the £240 model we can assume that there is approx £100 profit suggesting the maximum cost is about £140. VP are a very large organisation & can command lower cost manufacturing, so would assume their cost would be less than £140, which between them & dealer there is over £1,450 gross margin. Modern distribution enables manufacturers to have a european distribution centre, which is able to ensure delivery within 2/3 days, so only VP should need to hold 'parts on shelf' not the dealer.



As regards 'beating up Volvo Penta', although as you say it will make no difference, who else should customers make their complaint to & if customers don't pass their dissatisfaction onto the supplier how are they going to make changes (listen to your customers, is vital in business)

One of the first signs of a business on the road to failure, is massively increasing prices trying to cover cost inefficiencies within the organisation, rather than deal with the problem (suppose that also applies to UK as well!)

None of the above, of course, will change anything until the cost of maintaining engines becomes so prohibitive that the market collapses & we will all become 'raggies'!

Pan..

I am certainly no VP fan, however they do set industry standard for first pick parts availability as well as continued parts coverage very old engines.

Not suggesting that dealers hold stock, with efficient PDC and overnight distribution to dealers VP can provide a propt response to any parts enquiry at very sensible lead times. No getting away from it if you are supporting some engines which can be 30 plus years old with a low stock turn warehousing it expensive.

Cat looked at Sabre when they purchased them, stock turns did not meet corporate guidelines on certain engines so tonnes of parts simply went in the bin the result was to put the kiss of death on many Ford Sabre models as seen from comments by distraught owners on this site.

If you really want to experience eyewatering parts prices purchase a Yanmar, and you will find that the distributor has a far lower first pick performance than VP with many items being on three month season wrecking Japan lead times.

You cannot compare with EJ Bowman, a small lean organisation with many first class designs unchanged for decades, however dependat on which dealer you use some Bowman componens are on several weeks lead time.

As to DC Vs EC gearbox lube oil cooler nothing wrong with the DC unit but a simple brazed tube stack with rubber ends is OK on say a low hour gasoline installation versus the nice robust EC unit with cupro nickel tube stack, alloy housing and bronze end caps with O rings.

As to having a moan on the VP stand, expect to meet a dealer with similar view to your own, ending up as non value added activity.

Ho Hum

 

[Latestarter1]

We just had to replace the intercooler and starter motor on a d4, the bill was fairly eye watering.

IMO there is no justification for these sort of prices other than the fact that there is no competition (ie no pattern parts), so you can charge what you like.

No clue why I appear to be fighting VP's corner, however as soon as I see CAC replacement, I hear the the 'lack of CAC servicing' self induced alarm bells ringing.

 

[julians]

When you say 'lack of CAC servicing', do you mean anode replacement?

If so, you'd be wrong, anodes were replaced at the appropriate times . Not sure what went wrong but the intercooler had corroded away which lead to a water leak, which fell onto the starter motor and took that out. The other engine (same maintenance regime) was fine.

 

[oldgit]

Well in the past I could have said Rover Cars, for the (old) Mini which was still being sold with the A series engine 45 years after introduction.
Or maybe Land Rover (Defender) although maybe not engine parts

Pedant

Mini.zillions of versions ...where to start from 1959 via oddballs Vande plas etc right through to the Metro and beyond.
Bet you could count the number of 40As on the fingers of yer hand.....well low thousands anyway.
The 40B and on use a totally different shaped unit entirely.

 

[Latestarter1]

When you say 'lack of CAC servicing', do you mean anode replacement?

If so, you'd be wrong, anodes were replaced at the appropriate times . Not sure what went wrong but the intercooler had corroded away which lead to a water leak, which fell onto the starter motor and took that out. The other engine (same maintenance regime) was fine.

CAC servicing i.e complete stripping, cleaning and pressure testing should be carried out at no greater than four year intervals, three is better unless you regularly fresh water flush, I stand by my opinion that this was all self induced.

 

[superheat6k]

Look, I have to accept some of this pain is undoubtedly self induced - but this goes with owning a Turbo 36, where access to the 'difficult end' is one easily ignored. I am also a 'qualified' engineer who it could be (easily) argued should know better. But then I also like a beer and regularly annoy my wife as well !

So returning to the actual world of owning a boat - and of course my original post, I expect VP will price parts commensurate with their design, effort etc, plus the fact they expected to sell a Long-life and reliable engine in the first place. So 2, 3 even 4 times an equivalent unit price fine, but is expecting 16 x just simply taking the pi22.

I didn't bother visiting the VP stand, after all it's not these poor guys fault, instead I went for a second time to the Nordhavn. A boat with a range of 2,800 NM, and not an ECU or indeed any other OE obliged reliance. After all mid Atlantic, and getting a 'Consult your nearest VP dealer' message, may not be the most useful advice.

As for D4, D6, IPS, etc, (& of course Outdrives generally) forget it - no proper injection pump and no shaft, then I am not going to buy the boat with such CR*P pretending to be reliable, maintainable engines. But then that's just me after an idyllic day looking at some cracking boats, albeit some with questionable engines !

 

[Ian h]

However the fact that major critical spares are still available for 35 year old engine is pretty impressive.
Name me one car builder with a track record like that.
Basically good on VP for supply spares for ancient engines.Whatever the price.

If you own virtually any age Porsche you are still be able to get spares for any car.

 

[julians]

"CAC servicing i.e complete stripping, cleaning and pressure testing should be carried out at no greater than four year intervals, three is better unless you regularly fresh water flush, I stand by my opinion that this was all self induced."

The maintenance schedule states every 5 years or 1200 hours, this one failed at 4 years old.

Look - Im not complaining about the fact it failed (although I probably should be), I'm complaining about the extortionate replacement parts costs.

 

[Latestarter1]

Look, I have to accept some of this pain is undoubtedly self induced - but this goes with owning a Turbo 36, where access to the 'difficult end' is one easily ignored. I am also a 'qualified' engineer who it could be (easily) argued should know better. But then I also like a beer and regularly annoy my wife as well !

So returning to the actual world of owning a boat - and of course my original post, I expect VP will price parts commensurate with their design, effort etc, plus the fact they expected to sell a Long-life and reliable engine in the first place. So 2, 3 even 4 times an equivalent unit price fine, but is expecting 16 x just simply taking the pi22.

I didn't bother visiting the VP stand, after all it's not these poor guys fault, instead I went for a second time to the Nordhavn. A boat with a range of 2,800 NM, and not an ECU or indeed any other OE obliged reliance. After all mid Atlantic, and getting a 'Consult your nearest VP dealer' message, may not be the most useful advice.

As for D4, D6, IPS, etc, (& of course Outdrives generally) forget it - no proper injection pump and no shaft, then I am not going to buy the boat with such CR*P pretending to be reliable, maintainable engines. But then that's just me after an idyllic day looking at some cracking boats, albeit some with questionable engines !

#1 I have been at meetings with potential European distributors of U.S. built boats and have frequently been told that unless vessel has VP power forget it customer base demands VP as well as positve impact on residual value. If customer base demands VP then you take oll the **** which goes with it, owners have made their bed then they should just lay on it. Remember I fiight for another corner certainly not Volvo.

#2 Nordhavn powered by Deere motors which also have your dreaded ECU's on them and similar common rail pump system to the rest of the industry. Deere dealer network in Europe is at best poor and they have a policy of low up front engine pricing and similar to VP outragous aftermarket parts pricing as long term revenue stream.

#3 D4/6 not my cup of tea as they are slightly boutique engines in my book, however despite my reservations they do the job for which they are intended in a very reliable, quiet, responsive, refined and sociable i.e. smoke free manner.

#3 As to propulsion systems, I have zero interest in anything other than shafts so there is at least some common ground...

 

[oldgit]

You also cannot blame VP for the frankly stupid situation where the engine is hung on a bit of rope from the workshop ceiling and the rest of the boat built round it,in a very sucessful attempt to prevent any sort of easy access or possibly to deny that there is actually an nasty horrid engine in their somewhere at all.
The engine is the heart of any boat.However the buying public wants more cupboards/extra toilets/bigger saloon.
No wonder stuff fails cos no bugger wants to crawl around in what basically is a caving expediton to check hoses/seals/oil levels.
Boats buyers you got exactly what you asked for .Stop moaning when you are present with the real costs of all that spacious white carpet shiney cherry and third bog.

 

[superheat6k]

EJ Bowman DC90 now fitted to both engines and boat serviceable again.

Once I had gathered the coolers and various mounting blocks and connecting hardware, installing took about 2 hours per engine, which for a conversion I thought was fairly simple.

Cost for a Cupro Nickel cored Bowman compared to a brass cored VP gearbox oil cooler ...

VP dealer £1,600; VP parts Agent £1,300

Bowman £78
Fittings approx £25

So the pair replaced for just over £200

Also the internal tube surface of the Bowman is about 25% higher and no need to swap anodes.

If anyone has to do a similar task I will be putting a full write up and photos on my blogsite.