Volvo D12 series

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rlw

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Still trying to make my mind up on which boat to view so looking for some more forum wisdom.

I think the volvo D12 715 is considered a sound engine. However have seen some boats with D12 615 or D12 700. Are there any issues with the older generation engines?

Also considering would a Targa 48 be a much quieter boat than say a V55 or T52 with D12's?

rlw
 
rlw said:
Still trying to make my mind up on which boat to view so looking for some more forum wisdom.

I think the volvo D12 715 is considered a sound engine. However have seen some boats with D12 615 or D12 700. Are there any issues with the older generation engines?

Also considering would a Targa 48 be a much quieter boat than say a V55 or T52 with D12's?

rlw
Click to expand...

The 775 is a better motor and eliminated the 2 crankcase breathers that cause leaks , the 775 has a vacuum type strainer that filters itself and returns to the sump.
 
volvopaul said:
The 775 is badged as the 800
Click to expand...

Is it the same block ?
Reason I ask ,is that reading ( I know whilst Mr Google is mostly ok there’s some crap too and one needs to filter , somtimes one gets it wrong ) on line about the D 12 , and oil pan leaks .

After all the pan is just a piece of tin bolted on separated by a gasket - why should it leak ?

No other comparable make ,say Scania , CAT , MTU , MAN at the 12/13 L - straight 6 mode report pan leaks .

1 st line is a duff gasket or loose sump pan bolts —— Ok ??
2nd line is blocked or impeded crank breathers - increasing bottom end pressure - thus forcing the oil out —-

Ok we kinda buy sort of into that ,because the competitors send the crank fumes , recirculating then into ( via a filter ) back into the induction side - turbo to be burnt off and sort of oil mist the air side .These block or restrict so why no oil pan leaks ? , If the increase in bottom end theory holds out ???

All the above sends the buyer away content the world of VP all is fine :)
How ever the problem keeps reoccurring ( despite new breathers 6 months back )
There’s a suggestion on other forums saying the webbing in the block is not beefy enough , what’s actually happening is the case is flexing / twisting , thus busting its seal with the pan .

The restrictions of a duff breather just exasperate an inherent lack of stiffness in the crank case part of the block .

More likely to show up if it’s getting a regular caning
 
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I've had 4 of these, 715 and 775

1. On 715 the breathers are best changed at 100 hours even mid season but they are dead easy to access and it's 5 minute job.
2. I never had leaky sump. There is plenty of exaggeration on the net plus people just write what they read. There is so little bad about D12 that all people can talk about is the odd sump gasket weep. The fact is you need to change those breather filters in cold climates. Piece of cake to change.
3. Very nice engine and I'd buy it again. Robotically machined and built unit injector electronically governed engine.
4. The 700 is early, available generally about 2001/ 2002. Same engine as 715 (2003) but will have earliest version EVC-A. If debugged should be fine.
5. At some point around 2006 ish they changed the valve rocker design to a simpler floating rocker. This point is pretty marginal as an owner/user but it might have increased the tapper adjust intervals. Not sure but you can check. However volvos own published info on this is unclear iirc
6. The 775 is best evolution: fixes the changeable breathers thing, evc C, etc, but the 715 is fine.
7. Obviuosly volvo business model is cheap engine and expensive spares. Plus ungenerous warranty attitude. You pays yer money etc...
 
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jfm said:
I've had 4 of these, 715 and 775

1. On 715 the breathers are best changed at 100 hours even mid season but they are dead easy to access and it's 5 minute job.
2. I never had leaky sump. There is plenty of exaggeration on the net plus people just write what they read. There is so little bad about D12 that all people can talk about is the odd sump gasket weep. The fact is you need to change those breather filters in cold climates. Piece of cake to change.
3. Very nice engine and I'd buy it again. Robotically machined and built unit injector electronically governed engine.
4. The 700 is early, available generally about 2001/ 2002. Same engine as 715 (2003) but will have earliest version EVC-A. If debugged should be fine.
5. At some point around 2006 ish they changed the valve rocker design to a simpler floating rocker. This point is pretty marginal as an owner/user but it might have increased the tapper adjust intervals. Not sure but you can check. However volvos own published info on this is unclear iirc
6. The 775 is best evolution: fixes the changeable breathers thing, evc C, etc, but the 715 is fine.
7. Obviuosly volvo business model is cheap engine and expensive spares. Plus ungenerous warranty attitude. You pays yer money etc...
Click to expand...

Breathers not a 5 min job on most boats, the Sq58 as per yours didn’t have fuel tanks in the way .
Port engine requires on most boats the top cover removing , the air filter housing removing you can then spin off the breathers .

My view is the breather filters are in the wrong place or right place for turnover numbers Because most D12s are conventional shaft drive so they run at a Downward angle, the oil sits level splashing around the rear crankcase seal, the oil is thrown up towards the air breathing passage towards the filters , fill it too much and it will blow out the filters at full chat .
The 800 has done away with filters and they did learn at the end because the breather separator is at the front of the engine.

Alll great motors , we don’t get the problems we get with the smaller engines.
 
So whilst we are on the topic of D12 and JFM blended in the EVC A system, ....

Since buying the boat I have had "random" working triangle errors on both engines.

The engines work fine. The errors come and go. If i see one on start up I just turn it off and restart. Usually goes away.

When it was bought the local Volvo dealer looked at it and it seemed to go away for a little. In the summer i have volvo out due to soot on one side on the boat ( no fault - assumed the wind was blowing and pushed soot on one side and off the other - did not come back) and there were no EVC errors logged ( EVC A has no error codes - it just says error :-( )

Any suggestion as to what the issue maybe that causes there errors ( or indeed what errors the general warning triangle is trying to tell you about?)

Thx


Jeremy


PS - I do have a sump weep on one engine - but it is exactly that - i guess 1/3 of a cup of oil in 100 hours maybe less.

PPS - I also had the breathers block and spew oil over one engine. In a 58 they do that 5 mins to change but they are expensive! I will change mid season this year as well.
 
I had the same on D12 and still rarely on D13. I comes sometimes when you start immediately after turning on ignition. Wait a few seconds before you start, maybe it will help. Anyway, even with the triangle on display all seems to work normal.
Rgds
Helge
 
In my opinion the D12-800 suffers from injector faillure. Never had that on a 700 or 715, only on the D12-800. Is there any difference between them?
 
novanta said:
In my opinion the D12-800 suffers from injector faillure. Never had that on a 700 or 715, only on the D12-800. Is there any difference between them?
Click to expand...

Common rail engines are more susceptible to injector failure than none CR ,from sub optimal filtration issues .If there is a weakness in the filtration ,pitty the tips , they go first !
Pump pressure being going on 2x as much and multiple opening episodes, ie 3 to 5 in a compression stroke , means it does not take much 8hit or water for that matter to upset a tip .Also the cannula is a lot smaller / finer .

Where as a none CR ,say the EDC version has injectors with bigger cannuli , and only open once ( for longer and “ inefficient ly “ ) per stoke , .
For clarification both are electronically controlled ,the but CR ones are working 3-5 times more with a smaller more blockable hole .

There’s also instal issues , susceptibility to overloading and running at excessive EGT,s ( dirty sterngear etc ) - too much time @ near 100 % load ,tendency to burn the tips .
By the sounds of it the intercooler maintenance leaves little wiggle room too .

Add all this up together ^^^ to what you see , folks reporting trouble , but there are lot out there as well remember.

More here
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?332962-Fuel-Injector-Failure-Volvo-D12/page2

Injector cups seem to be problematic too on Volvo CR, like the D12 ,800 in this case

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gB9HodB0cAw
 
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Portofino said:
Common rail engines are more susceptible to injector failure than none CR ,from sub optimal filtration issues .If there is a weakness in the filtration ,pitty the tips , they go first !
Pump pressure being going on 2x as much and multiple opening episodes, ie 3 to 5 in a compression stroke , means it does not take much 8hit or water for that matter to upset a tip .Also the cannula is a lot smaller / finer .

Where as a none CR ,say the EDC version has injectors with bigger cannuli , and only open once ( for longer and “ inefficient ly “ ) per stoke , .
For clarification both are electronically controlled ,the but CR ones are working 3-5 times more with a smaller more blockable hole .

There’s also instal issues , susceptibility to overloading and running at excessive EGT,s ( dirty sterngear etc ) - too much time @ near 100 % load ,tendency to burn the tips .
By the sounds of it the intercooler maintenance leaves little wiggle room too .

Add all this up together ^^^ to what you see , folks reporting trouble , but there are lot out there as well remember.

More here
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?332962-Fuel-Injector-Failure-Volvo-D12/page2

Injector cups seem to be problematic too on Volvo CR, like the D12 ,800 in this case

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gB9HodB0cAw
Click to expand...
Why do you say "...none CR ,say the EDC version..." and "...on Volvo CR, like the D12 ,800 ..."?

None of the D12s, from the earliest 675s, through the 700/715, then the 775, ever had CR. They all had/have unit injection with electronic governing, and they all had/have electronically controlled fuel injection. Basically normal ECUs, which Volvo call EDC/EVC
 
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jfm said:
Why do you say "...none CR ,say the EDC version..." and "...on Volvo CR, like the D12 ,800 ..."?

None of the D12s, from the earliest 675s, through the 700/715, then the 775, ever had CR. They all had/have unit injection with electronic governing, and they all had/have electronically controlled fuel injection. Basically normal ECUs, which Volvo call EDC/EVC
Click to expand...

Not wanting to use Hp numbers like you have for fear of confusion- as some bright spark will Q that the CR , ( which I mean and you mean in this case the D 800 ) ) also comes in a detuned commercial vs which then overlap s the early none CR , Hp wise .
EVC was the ref to none CR ,
Directly under the part you quoted, there a sentence starting “ for clarification....... “

Too much time on hands .:)- the trucking fraternity reports loads of injector failures of the D12 , CR vs - hence the link to the utube vid - bear in mind the truck vs have waaay lower Hp so best not to mention Hp I thought - that’s not to say they share exactly the same injectors , there’s also a lot of chatter about the looms, the injector looms , ie the wiring , I left that out .

I have not researched, that no need ,as I think I have put fwd a credible answer to the Q “ what’s the difference ...... “ etc to the marine D12 800 seeming getting injector failures and the earlier vs using the 12 L ,in-line 6 block EDC / EVC , I called them none CR , as said adding Hp numbers I thought was not necessary .

Of course as always - it up to each individual to the necessary DD them self .
Novanta ,s source looks ok , looks like he,s in the industry? If you click the link at the foot of his post .

Perhaps it’s worth somebody asking him what circumstances he knows ,have arisen that have give rise to him forming that view - D12 800, s suffer injector failure .?

I have also a source who works for VP .Fr in La Napoule - a sort of French Volvo Paul if you like .
Listening to him ,we became friendly as he lived aboard a boat on the jetty I used to on , before we moved up .We used to give him our unused food when we turned the fridges off on leaving the boat etc .
I asked him once either CAT C 12 or VP D12 , I think 700 vs the 715 @ the time .Both none CR
He said CAT
 
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Porto you seem to diss anything that is not a itama ( which without rails I think are dangerous )

I would most likely choose cat over volvo but that does not make the d12 a bad engine. As far as I know it's general reputation is very good
 
Portofino said:
Not wanting to use Hp numbers like you have for fear of confusion- as some bright spark will Q that the CR , ( which I mean and you mean in this case the D 800 ) ) also comes in a detuned commercial vs which then overlap s the early none CR , Hp wise .
EVC was the ref to none CR ,
Directly under the part you quoted, there a sentence starting “ for clarification....... “

Too much time on hands .:)- the trucking fraternity reports loads of injector failures of the D12 , CR vs - hence the link to the utube vid - bear in mind the truck vs have waaay lower Hp so best not to mention Hp I thought - that’s not to say they share exactly the same injectors , there’s also a lot of chatter about the looms, the injector looms , ie the wiring , I left that out .

I have not researched, that no need ,as I think I have put fwd a credible answer to the Q “ what’s the difference ...... “ etc to the marine D12 800 seeming getting injector failures and the earlier vs using the 12 L ,in-line 6 block EDC / EVC , I called them none CR , as said adding Hp numbers I thought was not necessary .

Of course as always - it up to each individual to the necessary DD them self .
Novanta ,s source looks ok , looks like he,s in the industry? If you click the link at the foot of his post .

Perhaps it’s worth somebody asking him what circumstances he knows ,have arisen that have give rise to him forming that view - D12 800, s suffer injector failure .?

I have also a source who works for VP .Fr in La Napoule - a sort of French Volvo Paul if you like .
Listening to him ,we became friendly as he lived aboard a boat on the jetty I used to on , before we moved up .We used to give him our unused food when we turned the fridges off on leaving the boat etc .
I asked him once either CAT C 12 or VP D12 , I think 700 vs the 715 @ the time .Both none CR
He said CAT
Click to expand...
I think I'm going to give up on this. I don't follow your randomicity above. The sentence beginning "For clarification..." was as wrong as the rest of your post, because it referred to a CR version of the D12 engine. Not sure if I'm wasting my keyboard, but just to try one more time: No D12 ever built Porto has ever had CR as its fuel pressurisation method. They all have the very opposite of CR, namely unit injection (camshaft driven not hydraulic, btw). When I say all D12s are non CR, I mean all of them, from circa 300hp in a bus/truck to the 775hp newest/hottest version.

No worries that your mechanic says mate says Cat. I'm not making any V vs C comparison; I'm just saying the D12 is a pretty good engine (even if the C12 cat is better) and if buying a used boat, as OP is, then my view is that D12s are a positive feature. The better comparison with the 775 hp D12 is perhaps Cat c15, which is an awesome motor, newest incarnation of 3406E, perhaps best engine of all time in this power bracket, bar none. But the D12 is still alright, imho
 
jfm said:
I think I'm going to give up on this. I don't follow your randomicity above. The sentence beginning "For clarification..." was as wrong as the rest of your post, because it referred to a CR version of the D12 engine. Not sure if I'm wasting my keyboard, but just to try one more time: No D12 ever built Porto has ever had CR as its fuel pressurisation method. They all have the very opposite of CR, namely unit injection (camshaft driven not hydraulic, btw). When I say all D12s are non CR, I mean all of them, from circa 300hp in a bus/truck to the 775hp newest/hottest version.

No worries that your mechanic says mate says Cat. I'm not making any V vs C comparison; I'm just saying the D12 is a pretty good engine (even if the C12 cat is better) and if buying a used boat, as OP is, then my view is that D12s are a positive feature. The better comparison with the 775 hp D12 is perhaps Cat c15, which is an awesome motor, newest incarnation of 3406E, perhaps best engine of all time in this power bracket, bar none. But the D12 is still alright, imho
Click to expand...

Yup VP have ploughed there own furrow with unit injectors , the same principle s modes of failure apply , just the terminology.
Unit injectors that VP use have smaller cannuli and multiple events ( like CR ) .
Perhsps the 775 Hp ( D12 800 that Novanta ^^^ reffering to is just a step too far with UI pressure / tech ? In every day life in a boat susceptible to $hitty fuel ?
Agree the 715 is good un , buts that’s not what Novanta is asking .
CR pressure is from 1500 to 3000 psi , VP UI injector Pressure is 2500 psi ,
But as said there are a lot out there and folks needs to do there own DD

Have you any thoughts on VP UI injector failure btw ?

@ JRudge — re post # 18 , nah that’s a bit harsh , just shooting the breeze , where did the make of my current boat get a mention in this thread ?
D12 is a common engine a popular one in the 50 ftr / 60 ftr+ , this should develope be an interesting thread , let’s stick to the subject D12 .
Actually it would imho be nice to de drill a bit deeper in the world of UI.s ( in a nice friendly manor ps ) — but no worries if folks have no appetite , It is winter and the nights are long :)
 
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