Victoria 34 winged keel

[Tranona]

such as the America's Cup at Fremantle.

You are getting mixed up here. The successful use of the winged keel was in Americas Cup races in the USA, not in Australia, although the successful boat was Australian.

Just thought I would say, knowing what a stickler you are for trying to get things right.

 

[Pye_End]

A few Victoria 34s were fitted with a shallower winged keel. Does anyone here have any experience of one of these (or know anyone that does)? I have emailed Chuck Paine who kindly replied - he had nothing to do with it. I have posted the question on the Victoria Shadow owners forum to no avail. Just wondering how they performed compared to the standard keel and whether there are any good/bad points.

I seem to remember Bob Hathaway (Victoria Yachts) telling me about experimenting with a bit of a wing keel, but was describing clean water flows rather than talking about say ability to go to windward.

 

[doug748]

.................I have no knowledge of the subject in dispute.........................

Don't worry about that.


Google yourself an opinion and get stuck in.

 

[MikeBz]

Don't worry about that.


Google yourself an opinion and get stuck in.

 

[reeac]

OK does anyone know where all this shifting seawater goes to? Does it plunge down and return at a lower level a la Gulf Stream?

 

[Tranona]

The 'winged' keel is 6" shallower so I doubt it's a home-made modification.

In this case I'm finding the thread drift/spat amusing. I have no knowledge of the subject in dispute but I do know that intuition is often very misleading in the scientific world.

Now the argumentative folks have run out of steam - or are watching Downton- back to your original question. Doubt you will be able to tell the difference between the boat with that keel and a standard boat just by sailing it, although you may be able to tell some difference in back to back tests. However any difference, which is likely to be in windward performance could be small and due to other factors that are difficult to control. The advantage of that seemingly small reduction in draft means you could take the boat through the Canal du Midi, which may or may not be of value to you. The end plate will probably keep the ballast ratio the same and help with the small loss in efficiency of the foil.

If it helps, I have a shoal draft version of a Bavaria 37 with 40cm less draft than standard but same ballast ratio courtesy of a large bulb on the bottom which also has some end plate effect. Difficult to tell any difference without direct comparison with standard, and I chose it specifically to be able to use the French canals.

Whether you buy that boat depends more on how it compares in other respects with others on the market. Unless you have a phobia about having something different a non standard keel on its own should not be a deal breaker.

 

[William_H]

here in Austrlia people tend to see the winged keel of Australia 11 which won the Americas Cup as a wonderful invention. It was only part of the story. It also required good crew good sails good tactician and lots of luck. The concept of stopping end effect by end plate or wings was not new in aerodynamics. The winged keel of Aus 11 was valuable partly as an approach to to the measurement rules for 12 metre class. Thus a shallower draft gave less penalty while the wings to some extent gave a deeper draft when heeled. It also gets ballast lower down.
So in my opinion winged keel or end plates or bulb mau give some advantage in reduce end effect on a keel or wing reducing drag and giving an effect a bit like a longer keel/wing or improving aspect ratio. But it is not the real panacea we might think. The best performance still comes from the loger keel or wing. As in sail planes (gliders)
However if your priorities are a shallow draft and if there is a need to get the mass of the keel down lower then a winged keel, end plate or bulb is better than a simple shallow keel.
There are other concerns however like the stability and strength for the yacht to stand on it's keel. Many boats have a swept back fin keel so that the bottom of the keel is near centre of gravity to enable the boat to it safely on its keel. Others witha vertical fin will fall dlown backwards stern heavy if sat just on the keel.
So a whole lot of compromises in choosing a boat with winged keel. I would say however that a deep fin would oput perform the winged keel to windward all else being equal.

 

[charles_reed]

You are getting mixed up here. The successful use of the winged keel was in Americas Cup races in the USA, not in Australia, although the successful boat was Australian.

Just thought I would say, knowing what a stickler you are for trying to get things right.

Don't be hard on Seajet, he's a man of deeply-held, entrenched views.

In reply to the OP, I have a boat with a wingkeel (albeit about x8 the area of the one on the VIctoria) and it's main performance benefits are that @ <6 knots it makes the boat as stable as a much larger one and it definitely allows much shallower tacking angles. It's disadvantage is that it increases wetted area and adversely affects light weather performance. Its biggest benefit in use is that you can dry the boat out on it without any fears (and avoid crazy cradles).

PS the keel is retractable.

 

[Seajet]

Tranona,

the winged keel first appeared at Fremantle, there was a lot of fuss about the ' secret keel ', first shown to the public via filming from a helicopter as the thing was hidden by a ' skirt ' when ashore.

I attended a charity duck race at the time, racing sponsored decoy ducks down a mill stream; one entrant had a neatly made skirt around the lower half, ' to hide the secret keel ' !

At that time the American entrant for the AC, Dennis Connor in ' Stars & Stripes ' was backed by an aerospace firm, McDonnel or Boeing I forget ( merged now anyway ) and also tried a hull coating from 3M consisting of ' sharkskin finish riblets ' to break up boundary layer drag; I've always wanted to hear the conclusion on that idea.

 

[Tranona]

Tranona,

the winged keel first appeared at Fremantle, there was a lot of fuss about the ' secret keel ', first shown to the public via filming from a helicopter as the thing was hidden by a ' skirt ' when ashore.

Read what you wrote again. You specifically said the Americas Cup in Fremantle - which is WRONG - the cup races were in the USA. You are correct in that it first appeared in Fremantle, and I would not have commented if you said that originally.

 

[William_H]

Ah the days of the Americas cup defence in Fremantle. They were amazing times. By that time winged keels were the fashion for 12m yachts. The Australia 2 winged keel was officially unveiled in New York immediately after Australia 2 had won the cup 4 years earleir. That boat is now in a museaum just a few Km fromb here. Interesting the keel is painted white in the areas that might represent a standard fin keel while all the wing parts are dark blue to make it hard to see.
I got friendly with a guy (actually his family, he was far too busy) who led an American challenge. If I remember his boat was called Eagle. They had bought 3 different keel wings for their boat to try. Tonnes of lead. In the Louis Vitton challenge to select a challenger there were many races held. If I remember rightly there were about 10 challenge boats. So rounds of eliminations. This particular boat was beaten in the elimination series. The guy I had met left that night back to USA didn't even say goodbye. Must have been so disappointed. The boat and all the keels were no more than scrap but had to be taken back to USA to avoid import duties on the value of the keels (when new) not on the value after the event. (scrap lead value)
Anyway it is all history now, that Australia lost the cup again and since then the whole competition has gone a little mad with catamarans. Halcyon days for sailing here though.

Re winged keels as I said they are not a clear panacea for keel design because if they were such a wonderful improvement all yachts would have a winged keel. But they do have a place in some circumstances. good luck olewill