Victoria 34, inner forestay, cutter rig... lots of questions

[ifoxwell]

My father in law has a very pretty Victoria 34 with s pretty standard, for the day, mast head rig with a large section mast that contains in mast furling.

Up front there is the normal, for the day, huge genoa and a removable inner forstay. They are getting on a bit and short tacking this huge genoa is hard work regardless of age so heres the question.

It would be nice to permanently fit the inner forstay and have a small 110% genoa installed on it that would make short handed sailing much easier. The large genoa could then be left furled up front for use as an off wind or light wind sail.

What changes would have to be made to the rigging for this to work? It would seem to me that the inner forestay would need some reasonable tension on it to work well and that the mast head rig is then kinda turned into a fractional rig but with the hounds in the wrong place.

What do people think, waste of time, will it work, does the rigging need a complete rethink?

Ian

 

[Kelpie]

Depends how far from the masthead the inner forestay is attached. Or boat it is only just below so there is no need for runners or checkstays- you simply rely on the stiffness of the mast section.

If you'll need a new sail made up anyway, how about putting it on the current forestay? Ŵe have a self tacker on the forestay, and a removable inner forestay to take a big hank-on genoa for downwind or lighter wind days.
Obviously a self tacker on the inner forestay would have to be smaller.

 

[jac]

Sounds like 30 mins with a rigger might be a better place to start.

But my 2p

Assuming that the inner forestay is set up correctly, why would you change it. I presume that the mast, rigging and hull can stand the load from the inner so they should continue to do so, especially if your fil is going to be perhaps exerting less stress through use of less canvas than would have been designed.

That said, my preference would be perhaps to use the existing forestay, get a nice self tacking Yankee style jib, padded luff and tacking will be child's play. Yankee with padded luff will furl nicely and reduce sail area a lot for a few rolls thus preserving shape better.

Will lack power in light winds but they will still have the big genny if stronger crew available and might future proof the boat for the next few years as they become less able to deal with heavy loads.

 

[JumbleDuck]

What changes would have to be made to the rigging for this to work?

There are plenty of V34 cutters around, though they also have short bowsprits. I strongly recommend joining the Victoria Shadow Association (http://www.victoriashadow.co.uk/) for a mere tenner and then contacting the V34 technical expert there.

 

[rotrax]

Has the boat got roller reefing on the Genoa?

If so, my advice would be to have a high cut Yankee-100 or 110% ish-on the forestay.

Easy to handle, better visibility and would still allow the inner forestay to be used if required.

In light winds use the Iron Jib...............................

 

[MikeBz]

Not all V34 cutters have a bowsprit (http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1990/Victoria-34-2529658/United-Kingdom#.VSvFL9wVh8E - no that's not my own ad that I'm promoting!). My choice would be a cutter with self-tacking staysail and high-clewed jib. One day!

 

[ifoxwell]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys, ill keep investigating

Ian

 

[itchenseadog]

The standard V34 had a roller furling genoa on a stemhead forestay. An option was a detachable inner forestay designed for a small storm jib. The attachment point for this was taken through a U bolt to a stainless steel bracket bolted to the chain locker bulkhead. The cut out for the chainlocker hatch meant there was an inherant weakness as to the loadings that could be put on the inner forestay.
If greater loads are to be put on the forestay attachment there will have to be significant strengthening of the bulkhead and bracketry.
I was purchasing director at Victoria during the development and building of the V34.

 

[William_H]

I assume that the existing rig has an inner or baby forestay. (to a point 1/2 way up mast) This along with the large genoa size will cause difficulty in short tacking. I take it from OP post that this inner (baby) forestay is removable. Simple answer then is to fit a smaller high cut jib on the furler in place of the large genoa. This smaller jib will make sailing with the inner forestay disconnected safer in stronger winds. But be aware that in really strong winds the inner forestay will be needed to maintain mast support. ie fit anytime there is any rolls of reefing in the jib. Another inner forestay as ina cutter rig is still going to foul the inner (baby) forestay. good luck olewill

 

[knuterikt]

I assume that the existing rig has an inner or baby forestay. (to a point 1/2 way up mast) This along with the large genoa size will cause difficulty in short tacking. I take it from OP post that this inner (baby) forestay is removable. Simple answer then is to fit a smaller high cut jib on the furler in place of the large genoa. This smaller jib will make sailing with the inner forestay disconnected safer in stronger winds. But be aware that in really strong winds the inner forestay will be needed to maintain mast support. ie fit anytime there is any rolls of reefing in the jib. Another inner forestay as ina cutter rig is still going to foul the inner (baby) forestay. good luck olewill

Agree.

We did this on our boat (masthead with removable baby stay)
self tacking full hoist jib, if we need to use the baby stay, we just rig the old sheets, but we only need this if there is choppy waves on the bow.
Since the sail is 100% (almost - standing batten to fill the fore triangle) it can be roller reefed and still have good shape (compared to the large overlapping genoa.

You wold like to have maximum sail area for this "working" sail so setting a self tacker in the inner forestay you would loose to much sail area.

For light wind sailing we have an asymmetric and a Code 0, both on furler set on a short retractable bowsprit.

 

[ifoxwell]

The standard V34 had a roller furling genoa on a stemhead forestay. An option was a detachable inner forestay designed for a small storm jib. The attachment point for this was taken through a U bolt to a stainless steel bracket bolted to the chain locker bulkhead. The cut out for the chainlocker hatch meant there was an inherant weakness as to the loadings that could be put on the inner forestay.
If greater loads are to be put on the forestay attachment there will have to be significant strengthening of the bulkhead and bracketry.
I was purchasing director at Victoria during the development and building of the V34.

Interesting, thanks for the information

 

[MikeBz]

The standard V34 had a roller furling genoa on a stemhead forestay. An option was a detachable inner forestay designed for a small storm jib. The attachment point for this was taken through a U bolt to a stainless steel bracket bolted to the chain locker bulkhead. The cut out for the chainlocker hatch meant there was an inherant weakness as to the loadings that could be put on the inner forestay.
If greater loads are to be put on the forestay attachment there will have to be significant strengthening of the bulkhead and bracketry.
I was purchasing director at Victoria during the development and building of the V34.

So just to clarify, a lot of V34s are cutter rigged - presumably any supplied from new in this configuration were built differently, and any which were converted from sloop to cutter would have been modified to overcome the weakness?

Mike

 

[ifoxwell]

Agree.

We did this on our boat (masthead with removable baby stay)
self tacking full hoist jib, if we need to use the baby stay, we just rig the old sheets, but we only need this if there is choppy waves on the bow.
Since the sail is 100% (almost - standing batten to fill the fore triangle) it can be roller reefed and still have good shape (compared to the large overlapping genoa.

You wold like to have maximum sail area for this "working" sail so setting a self tacker in the inner forestay you would loose to much sail area.

For light wind sailing we have an asymmetric and a Code 0, both on furler set on a short retractable bowsprit.

Thanks for the input. On this boat the inner forestay goes pretty much to the top of the mast hence the thought that a sail fitted to this would offer a usable amount of sail area.

Question. Why is the inner forestay needed in string winds?

Thanks

Ian

 

[rotrax]

Hi Ian-from what an experienced earlier poster said the inner forestay should be used on the Victoria 34 WITHOUT the bowsprit just for hanking on a storm jib.

The deck fastening is not strong enough for a staysail.

Hope this clarifies matters.

 

[ifoxwell]

Hi Ian-from what an experienced earlier poster said the inner forestay should be used on the Victoria 34 WITHOUT the bowsprit just for hanking on a storm jib.

The deck fastening is not strong enough for a staysail.

Hope this clarifies matters.

Ahh good, that's fine thanks for clarifying.

Ian

 

[knuterikt]

Thanks for the input. On this boat the inner forestay goes pretty much to the top of the mast hence the thought that a sail fitted to this would offer a usable amount of sail area.

Question. Why is the inner forestay needed in string winds?

Thanks

Ian

Depends on the boat
We have a baby stay attached lower on the mast, this stay is there to reduce pumping together with the runners.
It's not necessarily the wind that is a problem, more running the bow into waves so the boat stopping.

A rig that is flexing back and forth in the waves sees much more stress.

Before making the self tacking sail and installing track for the sail we discussed making a solent type self tacking sail.
But we would loose some SA doing that 40cm * length of head stay.

I don't regret going for the max size self tacking sail, it can be roller reefed with decent shape for upwind work if needed.

 

[itchenseadog]

So just to clarify, a lot of V34s are cutter rigged - presumably any supplied from new in this configuration were built differently, and any which were converted from sloop to cutter would have been modified to overcome the weakness?

Mike

A cutter rigged V34 was built with a small bowsprit with the outer forestay to the end of the bowsprit with a bobstay down to a s/s fitting on the bow just above waterline. The inner forestay was mounted to the equivilant point on the stemhead. There was no need to use the chainlocker bulkhead.

 

[itchenseadog]

Thanks for the input. On this boat the inner forestay goes pretty much to the top of the mast hence the thought that a sail fitted to this would offer a usable amount of sail area.

Question. Why is the inner forestay needed in string winds?

Thanks

Ian

Reefing the main brings the centre of effort forward. A small storm jib on an inner forestay balances the boat and makes her easier to sail in a blow

 

[MikeBz]

There are some cutter rigged 34s which have the staysail tack well inboard of the stem head. I guess these must be aftermarket modifications:

 

[Simplysailor]

The standard V34 had a roller furling genoa on a stemhead forestay. An option was a detachable inner forestay designed for a small storm jib. The attachment point for this was taken through a U bolt to a stainless steel bracket bolted to the chain locker bulkhead. The cut out for the chainlocker hatch meant there was an inherant weakness as to the loadings that could be put on the inner forestay.
If greater loads are to be put on the forestay attachment there will have to be significant strengthening of the bulkhead and bracketry.
I was purchasing director at Victoria during the development and building of the V34.

Hello. I was wondering how many Vic34s were built?

I've heard some 175 Franceses 26 and 8 Victoria 38s were produced.

Much appreciated!

And thank you for the information on the inner stay attachment, I'm to convert my Vic34 into cutter adding a metal bowsprit and a bobstay. The boat already has U bold attachment for the removable inner stay at the bulkhead in the right place.