Victoria 34 and 38

[JumbleDuck]

Do designers really do that? It must be very difficult to analyse the stresses on a yacht at sea.

I'm sure they do. I went to a talk by Chuck Paine a couple of years back, and he said his was one of the first design houses to buy its own computer for in-house finite-element analysis ... that was in the seventies or maybe the eighties.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I'm sure they do. I went to a talk by Chuck Paine a couple of years back, and he said his was one of the first design houses to buy its own computer for in-house finite-element analysis ... that was in the seventies or maybe the eighties.

So the Victoria 38 ( nice boat by the way ) is likely to have had stress analysis of it's hull design done then.

Like all these things though it's only as good as the model and information stuffed into it. I am sure Pete Goss's Phillips or whatever it was called had extensive stress design although it didn't stop it breaking up in moderate conditions.

 

[Birdseye]

I wondered if the forum thinks there is a market for new 34 and 38 Victoria?
or is the market too congested already.

No. If you want quality you go swedish. If you want cheap its french or german. These days almost nobody buys british.

 

[Grumpybear]

So the Victoria 38 ( nice boat by the way ) is likely to have had stress analysis of it's hull design done then.

Like all these things though it's only as good as the model and information stuffed into it. I am sure Pete Goss's Phillips or whatever it was called had extensive stress design although it didn't stop it breaking up in moderate conditions.

The way I heard it, the design of Team Philips was OK but the quality control of the fabrication may have left something to be desired e.g temp and humidity fluctuations during layup etc. there is more to building and operating any structure, not just a FRP boat, than just designing it

 

[TimBennet]

. . . and he said his was one of the first design houses to buy its own computer for in-house finite-element analysis . . .

And I'm sure he generated lots of impressive looking and very colourful images. But the reality is that the greater part of most cruising boats will be done empirically with only isolated aspects of more 'adventurous' designs being earmarked for further analysis

To return to the Vic 34/38 debate, I can certainly see there could be a market for a version in the future. However at the moment, everyone who wants to cruise in a heavier displacement boat has a choice at every price point from high end HRs and Custom builds, all the way down through the secondhand boats of varying ages and sizes. But a large part of this 'supply' of boats are getting really old. Some of good, early examples are fast approaching 50 years old where everything bar the glass structure is getting knackered. Gone are the days when a lick of paint, new electronics, new sails, rigging and a set of piston rings would rejuvenate such boats - many are now suffering from severe corrosion to their masts, the sealant in the deck/hull joint has failed and the tankage is shot, etc.

But a Victoria 38 built in Turkey with an interior lifted from the larger RM designs still wouldn't necessarily be a winner. My take is that the design would need to be nearer 42 feet long, with at least a centre line double bunk, two heads and separate guest accommodation. But getting the design right is desperately difficult for this sector of the market - when Yachting Monthly tried to design the perfect example of such a boat, they got all the experts to agree how it should be, but sadly only one person amongst the buying public thought the YM38 was worth the money.

And further more, the perfect design built in the right place still wouldn't be enough. You would have to sell huge numbers if the 'economy of scale' was going to keep costs down enough to make these boats affordable. To do this, you would also need a 'formative event' to trigger a resurgence of mass interest in the medium displacement cruiser. Sadly you would need another 'Fastnet 79' event but this time involving lots of light weight production cruisers. The resulting reports, articles and books would all have to roundly condemn the 'folly' of going to sea in a Ben/Jan/Bav and heap praise on the Victoria 42 after three of them survived the event unscathed.

So with this resurgence of interest, a decline in the ready supply of cheaper old medium displacement boats, a perfect design from a well known 'cult' designer, a massive investment in tooling and production, a peerless sales team and support structure . . . well then I think you could have half a chance. At best.

 

[roblpm]

Just like demand for wooden folkboats picked up after Westerly took all the business with Centaurs for fifteen years?

I can see the point of supplying modern hulls with simple (Varianta), standard (JenBenBav) or traditional (HR) interiors, but I really can't see who would want to buy an old fashioned hull with a modern interior. If you're buying new, why not get modern design, stress analysis and construction? All the old fashioned approach does is get you a heavier, weaker hull for more money.

Ok i am not an expert but just went on a sailing course on a sun odyssey 37 which was nice but bounced up down to windward.

My understanding is that some boats don't slam as badly?

So am i just wrong? Or is there a niche for a boat that doesn't slam but doesn't cost 300k for a 37 foot boat??

 

[jac]

I don't think this is so much about design skill as much as the market.

we have the typical AWB where fit out is adequate but the design is perhaps not so good for bashing round the English channel in march however price due to build techniques etc is very good.

Or

we have the Rustler / Victoria etc where fit out is 1st class, design is excellent but price due to hand building is ouch.

My view is that there is a gap in market for a Rustler / Victoria design but built / fitted out to BEN/JEN/BAV standards and using the savings from those build techniques to reduce the selling price.

 

[rogerball0]

Ok i am not an expert but just went on a sailing course on a sun odyssey 37 which was nice but bounced up down to windward.

My understanding is that some boats don't slam as badly?

So am i just wrong? Or is there a niche for a boat that doesn't slam but doesn't cost 300k for a 37 foot boat??

Yeah that niche is called a secondhand Westerly, Moody, Sadler, Rival, Malo, HR, Najad, Sweden Yachts et al which can all be had for between £40 to 150K depending on length, age, condition etc........thats why nothing new of any production numbers will ever come from these isles again because of what can be had in the secondhand market that'll suit any pocket or sailing application, plus what you can buy new is already well covered by the likes of HR, Najad, X-yachts, and the serious French stuff.

Still haven't heard back how many rustler37's have been sold yet?

 

[jac]

Yeah that niche is called a secondhand Westerly, Moody, Sadler, Rival, Malo, HR, Najad, Sweden Yachts et al which can all be had for between £40 to 150K depending on length, age, condition etc........thats why nothing new of any production numbers will ever come from these isles again because of what can be had in the secondhand market that'll suit any pocket or sailing application, plus what you can buy new is already well covered by the likes of HR, Najad, X-yachts, and the serious French stuff.

Still haven't heard back how many rustler37's have been sold yet?

True but they are second hand.

Can it really be impossible to knock out a 37 footer brand new for £150k - £200k and have it not slam and be able to sail to windward in bouncy conditions.

 

[roblpm]

True but they are second hand.

Can it really be impossible to knock out a 37 footer brand new for £150k - £200k and have it not slam and be able to sail to windward in bouncy conditions.

Rogerball is right that it isn't going to happen. But jac is right that there is a gap in the market!

Hr, x yachts and Najad have ridiculously expensive fitouts. I for one dont want a teak deck or a mahogany interior.

 

[JumbleDuck]

So the Victoria 38 ( nice boat by the way ) is likely to have had stress analysis of it's hull design done then.

Yes, I would expect so. I don't know how much they try to do the whole hull, but I would certainly expect FE models of stressed areas like chainplates, rudder attachment and so on.

Like all these things though it's only as good as the model and information stuffed into it. I am sure Pete Goss's Phillips or whatever it was called had extensive stress design although it didn't stop it breaking up in moderate conditions.

Very distant memory here, but I think there was a significant fabrication issue with Team Philips. The FE model was good, but reality wasn't. Dim recollection only, E&OE.

 

[JumbleDuck]

And I'm sure he generated lots of impressive looking and very colourful images. But the reality is that the greater part of most cruising boats will be done empirically with only isolated aspects of more 'adventurous' designs being earmarked for further analysis

I am assured that modern designs from the big makers are FEA'd to within an inch of their lives ... the British tradition of doing it by eye is defunct, like the companies who used it.

 

[rogerball0]

Rogerball is right that it isn't going to happen. But jac is right that there is a gap in the market!

Hr, x yachts and Najad have ridiculously expensive fitouts. I for one dont want a teak deck or a mahogany interior.

I'm totally with you on the aesthetic/design side of the argument but the barriers to entry are too high, firstly the capital required to set up a highly automated factory along the lines of Bavaria, and what the Frenchies do would take years to generate any actual profit imo thats why nothings going on in that market segment here apart from the hyper specialist manufacturers of floating 19th century hunting lodges who make maybe 2 or 3 a year or the other end of the spectrum with manufacturers of appendage extensions like Oyster & Sunseekers.

Without pissing on anyones parade the justification for a gap in the UK-made market is nothing more than a mirage for if it existed it would of been filled and successfully so by now (especially given the years of uninterrupted economic growth upto 2008) and it hasn't and wont not least in this country because of those two factors; costs and profit.

 

[roblpm]

I'm totally with you on the aesthetic/design side of the argument but the barriers to entry are too high, firstly the capital required to set up a highly automated factory along the lines of Bavaria, and what the Frenchies do would take years to generate any actual profit imo thats why nothings going on in that market segment here apart from the hyper specialist manufacturers of floating 19th century hunting lodges who make maybe 2 or 3 a year or the other end of the spectrum with manufacturers of appendage extensions like Oyster & Sunseekers.

Without pissing on anyones parade the justification for a gap in the UK-made market is nothing more than a mirage for if it existed it would of been filled and successfully so by now (especially given the years of uninterrupted economic growth upto 2008) and it hasn't and wont not least in this country because of those two factors; costs and profit.

I did say i agreed it wasn't going to happen!!

 

[JumbleDuck]

Without pissing on anyones parade the justification for a gap in the UK-made market is nothing more than a mirage for if it existed it would of been filled and successfully so by now (especially given the years of uninterrupted economic growth upto 2008) and it hasn't and wont not least in this country because of those two factors; costs and profit.

As I wrote before, just look at how successful GT were at tapping the market for well-made, old fashioned boats with fairly spartan interiors.

 

[TimBennet]

I am assured that modern designs from the big makers are FEA'd to within an inch of their lives ...

There may be a little more real use of FEA in the latest designs of the bulkhead -less yachts, but generally there is little concern about 'strength' with regular sized boat - the issue is stiffness and finding an economic scantling that meets ISO 12215 will be done with a program like HullScant from the Wolfson.

It's also a bit of folklore that British boats were laid up 'by eye'. There's been scantling rules for years and although they were derived from empirical experience, they were very good until larger yachts like the Whitbread 60s started to plane and the requirements in the ABS rules for example were found to be inadequate for those sorts of boats.

 

[rogerball0]

I did say i agreed it wasn't going to happen!!

Sorry misunderstood as i thought you said you believed there to be a gap in the market, take it that was sarcasm, no worries.

 

[roblpm]

Sorry misunderstood as i thought you said you believed there to be a gap in the market, take it that was sarcasm, no worries.

No i do think there is a gap in the market but obviously not big enough to make it happen!

Though i wonder if benjen could make it happen. They seem to do ok with their niche sunfast products.

 

[Javelin]

If, and that's a big If we were to take on the challenge it would be just an addon to our normal Yard and renovation activities which would reduce the risks significantly.
Most of us at the yard own our own boats, its almost a prerequisite and we cringe at some of the build standards of some of the boats we get in on a regular basis and its not always just awb's.

So build would be quality but not lavish.
Functional rather than gimmicky.
Kiwi grip rather than Teak deck, veneered quality ply rather than solid and definitely not so called waterproof mdf which seems to be in vogue recently for instance.

However this is all still conjecture, just testing the water really.

 

[Tranona]

One of your biggest challenges would be finding suppliers of equipment. Easier in the past when volume building meant good supply chain. From my own experience of hand building one atva time, nightmare sourcing parts and labour hours run away from you through operational inefficiencies.

Don't do it.