VHF Radio licence

[dgadee]

You sat the course you must know what was covered! I appreciate that some people are smarter than average and so progress through the material quicker than others. If that was you, then presumably unless you were in a group of people who were all unusually good you also saw the average level of understanding in the other participants? If you spent a whole day on the training and the only things you remember were how to press the red button and keep comms brief, you might be the reason it takes so long!

I do actually agree with you that some of the stuff that was covered was less relevant for your average leisure yachtsman BUT thats what happens when you have one qualification with (a degree of) standardisation across countries, and with the same qualification applying to everyone who wants to use VHF marine frequencies.

It could be taught in house by clubs and examined online. It is not rocket science. Children can pick it up.

 

[Mark-1]

The course is a lot more comprehensive and detailed now, than it was when I did it in 1980, so takes the full day.

Assuming you're using a DSC radio you should have done it a lot more recently than that. For me it was a bit over 20 years ago

 

[Marsali_1]

I wonder if this thread will still be active in three months time? Or will one of two things happen (a) a certain poster gets tired of repeating his point (unlikely) or (b) the rest stop responding (hopefully)

 

[ylop]

It could be taught in house by clubs and examined online.

Nothing to stop clubs teaching it.

It probably would be possible to design and implement a reasonably robust online examination system (not sure if other countries in the ITU would accept that), but who is going to pay for the development not only of the simulation software, the login process, the user authentication, the privacy management, staffing to deal with technical support issues etc. Then that system will need maintained to cope with changes to web browsers, security standards, new ID documents etc.

It is not rocket science. Children can pick it up.

I'd say the older they were the slower they were to pick it up on my course. But you CAN do all the training (not the exam) online now - so it will only take you a full day if you have no prior knowledge or are particularly slow to pick it up. There were people on my course who had never touched a VHF radio before, and those who had lots of experience but no idea.

 

[dgadee]

You sat the course you must know what was covered! I appreciate that some people are smarter than average and so progress through the material quicker than others. If that was you, then presumably unless you were in a group of people who were all unusually good you also saw the average level of understanding in the other participants? If you spent a whole day on the training and the only things you remember were how to press the red button and keep comms brief, you might be the reason it takes so long!

I do actually agree with you that some of the stuff that was covered was less relevant for your average leisure yachtsman BUT thats what happens when you have one qualification with (a degree of) standardisation across countries, and with the same qualification applying to everyone who wants to use VHF marine frequencies.

20 of us did the course and exam (I organised it). All kayakers. They must be smarter than your typical sailor. Course was about 3 hours. Simple exam. No-one failed.

Trainer did well, money wise. But the RYA is set up to commercialise its public service monopoly, so how the day panned out was not surprising.

 

[dgadee]

I wonder if this thread will still be active in three months time? Or will one of two things happen (a) a certain poster gets tired of repeating his point (unlikely) or (b) the rest stop responding (hopefully)

And your contribution is useful?

 

[RunAgroundHard]

.. But the RYA is set up to commercialise its public service monopoly, so how the day panned out was not surprising.

That’s interesting. I thought the exam service could be provided by anyone, but not so, only through an RYA RTC. Anyone can provide the training. I would have thought that I dependent examiners would be desirable in a market. The MCA approve other sail training schemes, so why should whatever agency oversees VHF examination, not approve independent vHF SRC examiners? Maybe the market is too small.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

That’s interesting. I thought the exam service could be provided by anyone, but not so, only through an RYA RTC. Anyone can provide the training. I would have thought that I dependent examiners would be desirable in a market. The MCA approve other sail training schemes, so why should whatever agency oversees VHF examination, not approve independent vHF SRC examiners? Maybe the market is too small.

Because it wouldn’t stop people moaning?

 

[ylop]

20 of us did the course and exam (I organised it). All kayakers. They must be smarter than your typical sailor.

Interestingly the sea kayaker on my course had no idea that the coastguard didn’t operate boats in the U.K. or that the RNLI were not part of the CG!

Course was about 3 hours. Simple exam. No-one failed.

Maybe that’s why they made it longer and have a maximum 12:1 student:instructor ration now - because some students didn’t really understand what they were learning. Apparently people do fail although it did seem to me that it was very much set up to pass people rather than test them. I expect you would be even more annoyed if you had to put real effort into passing something so simple to use in reality.

(FWIW the current course is officially 10 hrs including self study - but you don’t have to look far to see many of the online providers suggesting it can be done in 1/2 that if you have some background knowledge).

Trainer did well, money wise.

But he would need a bunch of modified radios he only gets to use occasionally. I’m not sure it features high up the list of ways to get rich in the marine world!

But the RYA is set up to commercialise its public service monopoly, so how the day panned out was not surprising.

It’s not strictly a monopoly you can do the ROC or GOC course/exam as an alternative. That puts the RYA’s £65 into perspective!

Presumably if another body believed the RYA was profiteering they could lobby the relevant government department for an alternative approved body to issue the certificates. If it aggrieves you so much you should talk to your MP rather than us, or set up all the internal moderation and quality assurance processes, customer service and admin and see if you can massively undercut them - in fact the RYA might even think it’s in their members interests to let you take on all the certification if you can save everyone money. You can propose that at the next RYA AGM. That’s the great think about membership organisations - they are run as democracies not for corporate greed.

Whenever I hear someone complain about a process or costs in the UK, I often think it’s useful to compare to our cousins across the Irish Sea who have a lot in common:

“The duration is 1.5 days including exams. Fee (including course materials, exams and Dept of Transport cert): € 210”

 

[Marsali_1]

And your contribution is useful?

As much as your repetition.

 

[dgadee]

As much as your repetition.

You must keep coming back. You don't need to.

 

[dgadee]

Interestingly the sea kayaker on my course had no idea that the coastguard didn’t operate boats in the U.K. or that the RNLI were not part of the CG!

Maybe that’s why they made it longer and have a maximum 12:1 student:instructor ration now - because some students didn’t really understand what they were learning. Apparently people do fail although it did seem to me that it was very much set up to pass people rather than test them. I expect you would be even more annoyed if you had to put real effort into passing something so simple to use in reality.

(FWIW the current course is officially 10 hrs including self study - but you don’t have to look far to see many of the online providers suggesting it can be done in 1/2 that if you have some background knowledge).

But he would need a bunch of modified radios he only gets to use occasionally. I’m not sure it features high up the list of ways to get rich in the marine world!

It’s not strictly a monopoly you can do the ROC or GOC course/exam as an alternative. That puts the RYA’s £65 into perspective!

Presumably if another body believed the RYA was profiteering they could lobby the relevant government department for an alternative approved body to issue the certificates. If it aggrieves you so much you should talk to your MP rather than us, or set up all the internal moderation and quality assurance processes, customer service and admin and see if you can massively undercut them - in fact the RYA might even think it’s in their members interests to let you take on all the certification if you can save everyone money. You can propose that at the next RYA AGM. That’s the great think about membership organisations - they are run as democracies not for corporate greed.

Whenever I hear someone complain about a process or costs in the UK, I often think it’s useful to compare to our cousins across the Irish Sea who have a lot in common:

“The duration is 1.5 days including exams. Fee (including course materials, exams and Dept of Transport cert): € 210”

No, my point remains that VHF communication is relatively simple (children can use it, as demonstrated) and regulation at the current level is not required. You obviously don't agree but neither is it likely that I will agree with you.

We will move to a more deregulated system I predict. Just as we moved away from having to pay license fees for our installed radios.

 

[requiem]

It probably would be possible to design and implement a reasonably robust online examination system (not sure if other countries in the ITU would accept that), but who is going to pay for the development not only of the simulation software, the login process, the user authentication, the privacy management, staffing to deal with technical support issues etc. Then that system will need maintained to cope with changes to web browsers, security standards, new ID documents etc.

Building such a system from scratch would be rather wasteful; there are already plenty of e-learning platforms available that could be utilised. As I'm sure this is not the only such need, government should make arrangements for a service such that those involved in the examination need mainly provide a body of questions (including appropriate diagrams and images) in a common format.

I'd question the need for simulation software; radios differ and the exam shouldn't attempt to replicate them. Screenshots of expected displays (e.g. the list of DSC call types) should suffice where necessary.

And you need a full one day course for that sort of level of information? Jeez.

Sometimes the simplest lessons are the hardest to learn.

Thanking a bit... I could likely teach the radio basics in well under an hour. Including DSC, let's call it an hour. Questions tend to really eat up time, so add another hour there. Of course, I'm writing from a country where the "exam" consists of entering one's credit card number into a website, so perhaps I'm missing something Terribly Important.

If I had a full day to work with, most of the remainder would likely be spent on protocol and practice. I've helped out with some wilderness first aid courses, and at the end of each scenario we often ask the participants to write a SOAP note and make a radio call. People tend to get rather wordy here, and doing practice drills helps. People also aren't likely to remember much after a single exposure anyway. Sure they can pass the test, but unless they are regularly using it I imagine much would be forgotten after a few months if unused.

 

[Mark-1]

“The duration is 1.5 days including exams. Fee (including course materials, exams and Dept of Transport cert): € 210”

Or our cousins in Austrailia where it's a 20 minute exam. (And they guarantee you pass!?)

Marine Radio Licence

Or our cousins in America where recreational boaters don't need a license at all, either installation or operators:

FCC Radio Licenses | Navigation Center

 

[ylop]

Or our cousins in Austrailia where it's a 20 minute exam. (And they guarantee you pass!?)

Marine Radio Licence

20 min exam after a 4 hr online learning course and multiple 4-10 minute practice tests until you are consistently getting very good marks.

All for a cost of $288 AUD (so broadly the same as the U.K. cost).

Or our cousins in America where recreational boaters don't need a license at all, either installation or operators:

FCC Radio Licenses | Navigation Center

Im not sure that US leisure boating compliance is aspirational. Each state has its own requirements for boater certification but most states now require some sort of mandatory training, it would be surprising if there was no VHF use covered in that.

I’ve never used a VHF in the US but I believe it can be worse than the Solent in busy areas! However they have a massive advantage when it comes to being relaxed - almost none of their transmissions will be going into foreign countries whereas that is not true in the UK and so a little bit of agreement on equivalent standards makes sense.

Remember no leisure sailor in the UK is required to have a VHF radio, never mind actually get operator training - so people who are upset by this encroachment into their freedom are electing to make it a problem (presumably because the upsides outweigh the downsides).

 

[[70521]]

No, my point remains that VHF communication is relatively simple (children can use it, as demonstrated) and regulation at the current level is not required. You obviously don't agree but neither is it likely that I will agree with you.

We will move to a more deregulated system I predict. Just as we moved away from having to pay license fees for our installed radios.

A couple of points. VHF communication is simple, but rarely done well. See my post #292. Small words like over really do help.

We can all chat with each other like long lost pals, but that is not the function of VHF. Grab your mobile/satellite phone for that. The chatter between fishing vessels especially off Aberdeen - Peterhead - Fraserburgh is a joy to behold.

I fully support anybody in a life threatening situation pressing the PTT switch and saying help, but VHF is there for communication between some rather expensive vessels, I understand the cost of the new Cunard Queen Anne was US$ 600 million, and the CG/other lifesaving organisations.

An example I have often given is on a recent visit to a French Semaphore Station I discussed, as a non French speaker, the use of a MAYDAY/Pan Pan message. Their reply was lovely. 'Sir, the message follows a format, from that format we can work out what you need. Any problems understanding the message, we telephone Falmouth CG and play them the tape.' I wonder if they had heard any North Eastern Scottish fisherman.

I paid exactly £0.00 for my UK Ships Radio licence and a sum of money c£100, some time ago, for my user licence that allows me to use a Marine VHF on any vessel in the known universe.

99.99% of the time if you have a licence or not will not matter, but when the sh1t hits the fan and when you get investigated that you are asked for current, valid paperwork it really does matter. Perhaps you enjoy trying to argue a point with a barrister in court?

 

[dgadee]

Have you evidence of this court activity? And that it does matter? In my decades sailing I have never heard of such a situation so your information would be interesting.

 

[ylop]

Building such a system from scratch would be rather wasteful; there are already plenty of e-learning platforms available that could be utilised. As I'm sure this is not the only such need, government should make arrangements for a service such that those involved in the examination need mainly provide a body of questions (including appropriate diagrams and images) in a common format.

It doesn’t matter whether it pre-exists or is simply licensed in - you need a mechanism for users to register, login, prove their identity, show they are participating on their own (not me sitting the otherside of the table feeding them answers), securely answer questions, have the results marked and certificates issued. And the ability to sort out all the “I can’t login, my passport won’t scan, my internet went down in the middle of the test, I use a weird browser for privacy purposes JavaScript is disabled, my microphone was plugged in but not working” etc issues. Of course others have found solutions to that with varying degrees of success. The point is - that is not free. Is it cheaper than a guy who comes to the test centre and an admin person issuing certificates?

I'd question the need for simulation software; radios differ and the exam shouldn't attempt to replicate them.

That’s exactly what the practical part of the exam does.

Screenshots of expected displays (e.g. the list of DSC call types) should suffice where necessary.

It doesn’t matter what you think - it matters what the other countries in the international agreement think. Otherwise you will end up with a two tier licensing regime where people have a U.K. only license and then need to upgrade (with further time and cost) to an international license to sail across the Channel, North Sea, Irish Sea or charter in the Med etc.

 

[ylop]

Have you evidence of this court activity? And that it does matter? In my decades sailing I have never heard of such a situation so your information would be interesting.

I think Ofcom have confirmed that during their time as regulator they have never started proceedings against someone for VHF licensing issues. That of course doesn’t mean they can’t or won’t. Presumably you’d have to almost go out of your way to upset them enough to do so. Perhaps talking over a rescue operation? Or very publicly encouraging others to flout the law? At least in terms of operators certificate compliance, you will never find out as for some reason although you are unhappy about the system you got the SRC certificate which is valid for life.

 

[dgadee]

I think Ofcom have confirmed that during their time as regulator they have never started proceedings against someone for VHF licensing issues. That of course doesn’t mean they can’t or won’t. Presumably you’d have to almost go out of your way to upset them enough to do so. Perhaps talking over a rescue operation? Or very publicly encouraging others to flout the law? At least in terms of operators certificate compliance, you will never find out as for some reason although you are unhappy about the system you got the SRC certificate which is valid for life.

So you are scare mongering? And there must be so many people who don't have sets registered, using incorrect MMSI numbers (buying 2nd hat radios and not paying for the change) and don't have the certificate of if they do not using DSC (too complicated!). Yet the world of VHF communications goes on.

Edit: Sorry! It's Sandy doing the scare mongering.