VHF DSC Fixed Radios: Why no built-in GPS?

[mainsail]

We have a fair selection of hand-held VHF DSC hand-held radios to choose from - but I still haven't found what I need - a fixed VHF set with built in GPS.

All the set-manufacturers seem to be in cahoots with each other to make sure we have to buy a fixed VHF set and then a bit of cable and then a GPS - when, surely in a marine environment of all places, it should all be in just one reliable waterproof box.

There are plenty of fixed DSC VHF sets on the market which are supposed to connect to GPS units but, when push comes to shove, just won't work.

....so much for the much-vaunted - indeed over-hyped "benefits" of DSC sets. It is high time the EU or someone came down like a ton of bricks on radio manufacturers and make it a legal requirement to include GPS in every set they sell.

 

[elton]

I can think of a few reasons.

• Most boats already have a GPS.
• The GPS may or may not require an external antenna, depending where it's sited and the boat construction.
• GPS can take a good while to initialise.
• You might want the GPS turned on and the VHF turned off.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

I think this is an excellent suggestion.

Here are a few answers

• Most boats already have a GPS. - nothing wrong with having a second one - i have a seperate GPS receiver just for the purpose of supplying position to the VHF, as resilience.
• The GPS may or may not require an external antenna, depending where it's sited and the boat construction. VHF manufacturers could build in an external GPS capability
• GPS can take a good while to initialise. Not really - 10, 20 maybe 30 seconds so hardly relevant.
• You might want the GPS turned on and the VHF turned off. True, but not an issue if they are two seperate sets, as above. The Silva S15 tried to be one and the same, but its GPS facilities are not at all user friendly so you need a seperate item anyway.

 

[pvb]

We have a fair selection of hand-held VHF DSC hand-held radios to choose from...

Do we? I can only think of one in the UK, the Standard Horizon HX851E.

There are plenty of fixed DSC VHF sets on the market which are supposed to connect to GPS units but, when push comes to shove, just won't work.

Which are these radios which won't work with a GPS? I'd imagine the problems are owners' inability to connect them properly.

 

[bitman]

this idea i have for a long time!

standard horizon and others brands do have handhelds with gps build in but no fixed vhf. i don't understand that as the vhf is your safety radio and (hoopfully) installed so that it will keep working in a disaster (seperate power etc).
what happens now is that the vhf is connected to a gps or chartplotter, more cables and power eating boxes etc what can all go wrong. i even sailed on a beni where the vhf was connected to the chartplotter installed in the cockpit. i can think of enough reasons that the chartplotter can fail ie not giving the gps any more to the vhf just when you need it the most! (sure i know that the vhf will keep your latest position in memory when gps signal is lost) also now you have the need of running another power hungry box to keep your vhf happy.

i cannot understand why a fixed vhf radio can't come with a simple (cheap as beer in these days) small gps mouse powered by the fixed vhf. you can with a plastic boat stick it on the ceiling with some gafa tape if needed.

so fixed vhf manufactors get your act together and come with a solution!

it also took a while with the ais in fixed vhf radios...

 

[markdj]

I think you can pick up a gps mushroom with nmea out...

 

[lw395]

You should not IMHO rely on a GPS antenna working 'indoors', particularly for safety purposes.
When it struggles due to green water coming over the deck is when you really, really want it to work properly.

It would seem sensible to have a built in gps, it should only add about £50 to the retail cost of the VHF, but a marine grade external gps aerial would add another £50 at least.

From a technical perspective there is something to be said for having your gps a reasonable distance from a power vhf transmitter, at least not in the same box. However there is something to be said for minimising interconnect, especially on a yacht.

 

[lw395]

I think you can pick up a gps mushroom with nmea out...

That's what you want!

 

[minquiers]

standard horizon do a fixed one, but not available in uk, when i questioned them last year,they told me it was not legal in the uk, you can get them from usa, and take a chance.

 

[pvb]

standard horizon do a fixed one, but not available in uk, when i questioned them last year,they told me it was not legal in the uk, you can get them from usa, and take a chance.

I don't think they do - what model are you thinking of?

 

[Searush]

All it need is a usb socket on the radio to accept a cheap GPS mouse. Output is MNEA data stream, only needs a simple prog to turn it into a position. FFS, my phone can do it! Shouldn't add more than 20 squid total to the radio for a simple waterproof GPS mouse with a USB connection into the radio below decks.

 

[rosssavage]

Yeah, why not? Seems like a reasonable proposition to me. My boat has a complex nmea network driving all kinds of kit, with a data source select switch so I can choose which plotter supplies the gps data to the network. However, the idea of a VHF / gps combo is a great one for boats not requiring this complexity. I like the idea of having just one box for comms and a basic gps fix.

Incidentally, with reference to the 'most people connect it up wrong' comment, as an ex avionics engineer I COULD NOT get a new midland dsc set to join the party on my nmea network. Every combination of connection was tried, and every menu option ticked. The best help I could get from midland tech support was that the baud rate was wrong - great, but there is no rate select option in either the radio or my entry level plotters (rc435's). In the end it was sent back and replaced with a ray54e which worked first time with no fuss....

 

[RIB_imposter]

Standard Horizon do a unit with integrated VHF and chart plotter in the US but it is not EC type approved. Since they have just brought over a handheld dsc and got it though EU approval I'm hoping they'll do the same with the integrated unit. That said it is all your eggs in one basket.

When looking at DSC VHF I thought similarly - even a simple "mouse" with easy connect fitting would be attractive (saves needing to wire it - although I have to say that there are a huge number of working GPS/VHFs out there - so the OP is at least exagerating the problem of getting them to talk). I see why USB is being suggested but its not waterproof, not particularly mechanically robust. For small boats who don't want/need a plotter this seems a sensible integration - in reality that is probably a small proportion of the market, likely represented by those most likely to buy a budget model rather than a "fancy" option.

 

[nimbusgb]

It would seem sensible to have a built in gps, it should only add about £50 to the retail cost of the VHF, but a marine grade external gps aerial would add another £50 at least.

Built in to a handset I doubt it would cost more than £10 to the manufactured, of course the resulting handsets would A increase consumption and therefore reduce portable life and B increase the handset cost by £40 to £60. That's why they don't do it.

 

[pvb]

Standard Horizon do a unit with integrated VHF and chart plotter in the US but it is not EC type approved.

Their CPV550 model is a full-blown colour chartplotter with a VHF included, and costs around $1500. I'd hardly describe it as a "fixed VHF with GPS".

 

[photodog]

That looks like a great bit of kit that would do the job of a much more complex and expensive setup for the majority of boaters in the UK.... Back it up witha HH, your Iphone, and a Epirb and in reality its job done...

But I cant imagine that the entrenched suppliers would welcome it with open arms...

 

[rosssavage]

That does look lovely, but I'm guessing the op represents the end of the Market that don't want or need a 10" colour plotter - if they did there'd be no issue with having separate plotter and VHF! I was thinking more along the lines of normal sized radio with the ability to display a simple lat/long cog/sog - as most dsc sets will do when connected to gps. Does seem funny that many manufacturers make dsc with ais (yes, ok, I know it's easy cos they're both VHF systems) but not include a far more useful inbuilt gps, particularly as the ais bit won't work without gps data anyway!!

 

[bitman]

I see why USB is being suggested but its not waterproof, not particularly mechanically robust.

true, so why not bluetooth? there are already vhf handsets with bluetooth to connect your gsm...

the only problem with these gps bluetooth mushrooms are power...

 

[mainsail]

Why are they legal in the US and illegal in the EU?

The USA version of the Standard Horizon looks a great piece of kit - but something a lot smaller and simpler and cheaper is surely what's wanted.

Why on earth should the EU make it legal to sell hand-held VHF DSC radios with integral GPS in Europe but make it illegal to sell the fixed equivalent? This is surely nonsense.

The prime function of a VHF radio is to make distress calls and tell the coastguards where you are. Why should the EU decide to make it illegal to sell fixed VHF sets which automatically give the coastguards an accurate GPS position? It's very easy to get callsigns and co-ordinates garbled when people are under stress. Even airline pilots get it wrong when things are going to hell in a handbasket around them.

What the EU should surely do is make it illegal to sell VHF DSC fixed sets WITHOUT a GPS in them. They're far more likely to save your life than a lifejacket.

 

[pvb]

Why on earth should the EU make it legal to sell hand-held VHF DSC radios with integral GPS in Europe but make it illegal to sell the fixed equivalent? This is surely nonesense.

That's actually not the situation. A manufacturer has made a handheld DSC VHF with an integral GPS, and has submitted it for CE approval. They got the approval, so can sell it in Europe.

As far as I'm aware, no manufacturer has yet made an ordinary fixed DSC VHF set with an integral GPS. If someone did, they could submit it for CE approval, and then sell it in Europe. The EU hasn't made it illegal.