petie
Well-Known Member
I have a dated invoice from Dealer indicating price of new boat and that VAT has been paid at 17.5%. He also quotes his VAT registration no. Is this sufficient evidence that vat has been paid as he says this is all he has?
VAT
- Thread starter petie
- Start date
Whitelighter
Well-Known Member
yes, that shows that when the dealer sold the boat he charged VAT.
That is all the proof you can get - there is no such thing as a VAT certificate.
That is all the proof you can get - there is no such thing as a VAT certificate.
petie
Well-Known Member
Many thanks. Reassuring.
stelican
Well-Known Member
The invoice must be the original not a copy
gjgm
Well-Known Member
Usually all you get is the orginal invoice.
"Original" being the key word here.
VAT seems to have become a vital document when selling, but I dont know why. Even Customs and Excise dont seem interested. There were some very interesting points a while back from JFM if you can find them. I think the main point was that VAT is payable on the transaction, not on the asset itself, and that there is nothing in UK law to support the idea that you can "inherit" a tax liability from a previous transaction. In other words, if the first owner didnt pay VAT, thats between Customs and him, and not your problem.
Whether you would care to argue that point with Customs... /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
But, everyone now seems to want the VAT document, so not having it can make a future sale difficult.
"Original" being the key word here.
VAT seems to have become a vital document when selling, but I dont know why. Even Customs and Excise dont seem interested. There were some very interesting points a while back from JFM if you can find them. I think the main point was that VAT is payable on the transaction, not on the asset itself, and that there is nothing in UK law to support the idea that you can "inherit" a tax liability from a previous transaction. In other words, if the first owner didnt pay VAT, thats between Customs and him, and not your problem.
Whether you would care to argue that point with Customs... /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
But, everyone now seems to want the VAT document, so not having it can make a future sale difficult.
petie
Well-Known Member
It does seem a bit illogical. The problem is that the original document is lost in the mists of time and only copies are available. Does this mean that I can never sell the boat?
ari
Well-Known Member
I believe it's important that the original invoice is to a private individual(s) and an EU address too.
No good if to a company (that may have reclaimed the VAT) or outside the EU (although thinking about it, it wouldn't show the VAT in the first place if that were the case I guess).
Also understand that it should show the actual VAT element separately. ie:
Boat £10,000
VAT £ 1,750
TOTAL £11,750
And have a VAT number.
No good if to a company (that may have reclaimed the VAT) or outside the EU (although thinking about it, it wouldn't show the VAT in the first place if that were the case I guess).
Also understand that it should show the actual VAT element separately. ie:
Boat £10,000
VAT £ 1,750
TOTAL £11,750
And have a VAT number.
ari
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
It does seem a bit illogical. The problem is that the original document is lost in the mists of time and only copies are available. Does this mean that I can never sell the boat?
[/ QUOTE ]
Very good question.
The obvious answer is yes, but at about 15% less than should have been to allow the purchaser to pay the 17.5% VAT if challenged for it.
It does seem a bit illogical. The problem is that the original document is lost in the mists of time and only copies are available. Does this mean that I can never sell the boat?
[/ QUOTE ]
Very good question.
The obvious answer is yes, but at about 15% less than should have been to allow the purchaser to pay the 17.5% VAT if challenged for it.
ari
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Usually all you get is the original invoice.
"Original" being the key word here.
VAT seems to have become a vital document when selling, but I don't know why. Even Customs and Excise don't seem interested. There were some very interesting points a while back from JFM if you can find them. I think the main point was that VAT is payable on the transaction, not on the asset itself, and that there is nothing in UK law to support the idea that you can "inherit" a tax liability from a previous transaction. In other words, if the first owner didnt pay VAT, thats between Customs and him, and not your problem.
Whether you would care to argue that point with Customs... /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
But, everyone now seems to want the VAT document, so not having it can make a future sale difficult.
[/ QUOTE ]
The other point to add to this is that I'm lead to believe that if you buy a boat in the UK that's not VAT paid (or no proof of such) at a rate that reflects the fact, and then go to HM Customs and say "Hello, I'd like to pay the VAT on this boat please so it's properly legally VAT paid", there is no structure to allow you to do so!
Likewise, businesses and customs are not obliged to keep VAT records past seven years, but an eight year old boat (or 10 or 15 or 20 year old, whatever) is still required to have proof of original VAT payment.
The whole situation is utterly farcical.
Usually all you get is the original invoice.
"Original" being the key word here.
VAT seems to have become a vital document when selling, but I don't know why. Even Customs and Excise don't seem interested. There were some very interesting points a while back from JFM if you can find them. I think the main point was that VAT is payable on the transaction, not on the asset itself, and that there is nothing in UK law to support the idea that you can "inherit" a tax liability from a previous transaction. In other words, if the first owner didnt pay VAT, thats between Customs and him, and not your problem.
Whether you would care to argue that point with Customs... /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
But, everyone now seems to want the VAT document, so not having it can make a future sale difficult.
[/ QUOTE ]
The other point to add to this is that I'm lead to believe that if you buy a boat in the UK that's not VAT paid (or no proof of such) at a rate that reflects the fact, and then go to HM Customs and say "Hello, I'd like to pay the VAT on this boat please so it's properly legally VAT paid", there is no structure to allow you to do so!
Likewise, businesses and customs are not obliged to keep VAT records past seven years, but an eight year old boat (or 10 or 15 or 20 year old, whatever) is still required to have proof of original VAT payment.
The whole situation is utterly farcical.
Whitelighter
Well-Known Member
I dont see why a copy is not any good. Afterall, if you have a marine mortgage you can only ever have a copy on board, as the mortgage company will hold the original.
I have always wondered why people get so uptight about VAT on boats. No-one ever asks to see proof that VAT has been paid on car after all, and there are many cars more expensive than boats...
I have always wondered why people get so uptight about VAT on boats. No-one ever asks to see proof that VAT has been paid on car after all, and there are many cars more expensive than boats...
ari
Well-Known Member
I believe it's because you can't buy a car in the EU VAT free, you can with boats.
That's why you see ex company vans advertised "plus VAT", but never ex company cars.
So all cars are always VAT paid (unless imported from outside EU in which case will be paid on importation), so no need to prove.
That's why you see ex company vans advertised "plus VAT", but never ex company cars.
So all cars are always VAT paid (unless imported from outside EU in which case will be paid on importation), so no need to prove.
Whitelighter
Well-Known Member
hmm, You certainly can buy a car in the EU VAT free. Its part of the NMT legislation that also applies to Boats and Aircraft.
If you have an EU VAT number and the item forms part of your stock in trade, the dealer for the car can invoice you VAT free on the assumption that you will pay the VAT in your country of residence. Please note, this is not a VAT reclaim, the car is invoiced VAT free. You can then drive the car back to your country and as we know, no-one checks for anything on the border crossing never mind VAT status. Of course, to not pay VAT is illegal, but if it is a small operation I dont see how you might get caught
i'm not saying this happens, but it is easy to buy a car VAT free in europe, there is specific legislation that allows for it.
If you have an EU VAT number and the item forms part of your stock in trade, the dealer for the car can invoice you VAT free on the assumption that you will pay the VAT in your country of residence. Please note, this is not a VAT reclaim, the car is invoiced VAT free. You can then drive the car back to your country and as we know, no-one checks for anything on the border crossing never mind VAT status. Of course, to not pay VAT is illegal, but if it is a small operation I dont see how you might get caught
i'm not saying this happens, but it is easy to buy a car VAT free in europe, there is specific legislation that allows for it.
petie
Well-Known Member
So I have what appears to be the original invoice , made out to a private individual, showing boat price and Vat at 17.5% but the finance company insist on seeing sight of the "original VAT invoice". What on earth do Ido next?.
Whitelighter
Well-Known Member
If you have the orginal as you say, then you have what the finace company require. If you want, scan it and either email it to me or post it as a pic on the forum, but it sounds like to have the bit of paper you need.
petie
Well-Known Member
Many thanks.. PM sent wih scanned document.
Powersalt
Well-Known Member
Ah Jez dont the french make a big thing of vat invoice for british boats when they check your documents
stelican
Well-Known Member
The finance house supplying a marine mortgage will return the original invoice along with other title docs once the vessel has been recorded on The M.C.A. Registry Of Shipping
thefatlady
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
if you buy a boat in the UK that's not VAT paid (or no proof of such) at a rate that reflects the fact, and then go to HM Customs and say "Hello, I'd like to pay the VAT on this boat please so it's properly legally VAT paid", there is no structure to allow you to do so!
[/ QUOTE ] There certainly is in other countries. The first owner of one of my boats paid VAT on it in Spain when it was 11 months old on the second-hand value and got a certificate to prove it.
That also suggests that the VAT is payable on the asset, not on the transaction. However, since VAT is also payable on transactions which involve no asset, it becomes confusing.
In this case, the VAT must follow the asset, since otherwise VAT paid boats would be liable to VAT again on re-sale. Conversely, a non-VAT paid second-hand boat could be bought by a private individual without any VAT liability, but that would be wide open to abuse.
if you buy a boat in the UK that's not VAT paid (or no proof of such) at a rate that reflects the fact, and then go to HM Customs and say "Hello, I'd like to pay the VAT on this boat please so it's properly legally VAT paid", there is no structure to allow you to do so!
[/ QUOTE ] There certainly is in other countries. The first owner of one of my boats paid VAT on it in Spain when it was 11 months old on the second-hand value and got a certificate to prove it.
That also suggests that the VAT is payable on the asset, not on the transaction. However, since VAT is also payable on transactions which involve no asset, it becomes confusing.
In this case, the VAT must follow the asset, since otherwise VAT paid boats would be liable to VAT again on re-sale. Conversely, a non-VAT paid second-hand boat could be bought by a private individual without any VAT liability, but that would be wide open to abuse.
petie
Well-Known Member
But forum members advise us that there is no mechanism for actually paying vat other than at time of original sale?
Whitelighter
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
The finance house supplying a marine mortgage will return the original invoice along with other title docs once the vessel has been recorded on The M.C.A. Registry Of Shipping
[/ QUOTE ]
No they wont. They hold all original documents. Or at least Lombard and BoS do.
The finance house supplying a marine mortgage will return the original invoice along with other title docs once the vessel has been recorded on The M.C.A. Registry Of Shipping
[/ QUOTE ]
No they wont. They hold all original documents. Or at least Lombard and BoS do.
