VAT Question - No original Bill of sale available

seanfoster

seanfoster

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The boat I recently bought did not have the original sale documents (I wasn't too bothered because the purchase price was very low and the boat is nearly 30 years old) I used the MCA bill of sale to keep things proper, I did ask if the original bill of sale was available, but it wandered some time ago (probably a number of owners ago too!)

I'm now worrying a bit that the VAT staus of the boat is not clear.

Does anyone know how I could get this info? The boat is a Dufour, so would Dufour have any records of it?

Is it important? I do intend to sail abroad in a year or so, would not having the original bill of sale cause offcial problems later on?

Is there any other way of proving the VAT status?
 
It is worth asking Dufour but that may not help as the boat was probably not sold in the country where it was built.

From the RYA website:

VAT DEEMED PAID STATUS: Under the Single Market transitional arrangements certain boats in use as private pleasure craft are ‘deemed’ VAT paid under the Age Related Relief Scheme. However, in order to avail yourself of this scheme, the following must be evidenced: That the boat was in use as a pleasure craft on 1st January 1985, documentary evidence in support of this is required, evidence in support may take the form of : Part I Registration; Marine Survey; Builder’s Certificate; or insurance documents.
AND
That the boat was moored in the EU on 31st December 1992, again documentary evidence in support of this is required in the form of:  receipt for mooring; dry dock records; boatyard repair invoice; or receipt for harbour dues.
As Austria, Finland and Sweden joined the Single Market two years later, the relevant dates are – ‘in use’ before 1st January 1987 AND ‘moored’ in the EU on 31st December 1994.
EU ACCESSION COUNTRIES:
Cyprus, Czech Replubic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia joined the EU on 1st May 2004 and as such the relevant dates for the Deemed Paid Status are ‘in use’ before 1st May 1996 AND ‘moored in EU’ on 30th April 2004.
The rules within EU member states may differ slightly and we strongly advise you to contact the relevant EU member state for detailed guidance.
FURTHER INFORMATION/CONTACTS:
For further reference get yourself a copy of Notice 8 Sailing your pleasure craft to and from the United Kingdom from HM Revenue & Customs. This notice explains the Customs requirements for private individuals who sail their pleasure craft to and from the United Kingdom.
HM Revenue & Customs website address is: www.hmrc.gov.uk.
 
Join the thousands of others in the same position. Suggest you go on the RYA site which has extensive information on VAT.

Basically if your boat is 1984 or earlier and was in use in the EU in 1992 then it is deemed VAT paid. Although in theory you might be asked to prove it was in the EU on the date by for example having mooring bills, the reality is that you are unlikely to be questioned with an old boat.

Without an original VAT receipt (which would have been from the dealer, not the builder unless it was bought direct from the builder) it is impossible to prove that VAT has been "accounted for" because the onus is on the supplier to account for it, not the purchaser. There is no requirement to record the VAT against a specific boat, nor any requirement to keep any record after 6 years.

There is a lot of hocus pocus surrounding VAT and there is no evidence that ordinary boaters ever have any problems from authorities through lack of VAT receipt. This does not mean that customs don't pursue people for VAT offences, but not having a VAT receipt for your boat is not an offence in itself.

Register your boat on the SSR and have your original Bill of Sale which is your title and you should have no problems going abroad. Again the RYA have clear advice on all aspects of taking your boat abroad.

So, relax and enjoy your new boat!
 
If its any consolation i am in the same situation having bought a boat that the owner had either thrown away or lost the whole damn boat file containing all paperwork back to the original builders documentation, having been in touch with the previous owner to the guy i bought it off i know he had it but its gone.
Fortunately she is not registered, i checked first!
 
It's a relief to hear these comments, you hear of the odd horror story where some officious jobsworth in a foreign port demands documents and/or fines for not having the correct paperwork!
 
I believe this is a non-issue. The RYA have tried to find evidence from members that they have been interrogated over the matter but this seems to have fallen flat. It appears that they couldn't find anyone. It would be a different matter if you were bringing brand new boats from Gibraltar, Channel Islands or outside EU but in your circumstances you need have no concerns. I believe that provided you have the bill of sale between you and the previous owner, the VAT paid issue becomes the concern of the UK authorities and a foreign official will be satisfied with it. However, having now kept my 20 year old boat out of UK for the past 12 years, cruising between Denmark and Greece, I can state that nobody has ever asked me for this document.

Just this weekend I was speaking to someone who was asked for VAT paid evidence when entering Greece from Turkey. He simply pointed out 'the boat is 20 years old' and the official did not pursue the matter any further.
 
It is interesting to see from this thread how the orthodox wisdom on the issue is moving. A short time ago anybody raising this matter on these forums was being strongly advised by posters not to touch any boat that did not come with proof of VAT paid status, dire warnings of boat confiscations and children being separated from their teddies were issued.

Now it sounds as if sense is prevailing, and there is an awareness of the fact that nobody, not even the friend of somebody's friend, has come forward to say that they have in fact been charged VAT on a second hand boat.
 
True - cant wait for Spanish Matriculation Tax to go the same way!....... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Anyway, to the OP: Just send me a cheque for £100 and I will let you have the original purchase invoice from a friend of a friends business that went bankrupt many years ago! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Impossible and too time consuming for them to check/police after 28 years! Dont worry, just sit back and enjoy your boat! /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
That would still be the case if you took the official HMRC RYA endorsed advice seriously! Sad thing is that intelligent (?) people like brokers and finance houses buy into it as well.

Real progress will be made when HMRC come clean and admit they have been wrong all along - but don't hold your breath!
 
been charged VAT on a second hand boat.
*******
Well, you cant be, in the UK, at least.
VAT is payable on the original sale.. ie, its the sale that attracts VAT, not the boat.
Since a second owner isnt anything to do with the original sale, he cant be liable for that activity.
I think alot of the problems are that people have been asking how they can PROVE VAT hs been paid. Of course, HMRC can only then list what constitutes proof- ie documentation. No one is asking HMRC, do they require proof? OK, for some dodgy dealing, maybe yes, but otherwise it seems accepted that in the normal purchase, VAT would have been charged and paid in the normal course of business- the same as anything else we buy.
There have been some stories of problems abroad, but I think if you could support the age of the boat in this case, and have some sort of proof of ownership,marina invoices,etc.. you arent going to be bothered.
The VAT issue sort of became self fullfilling, as even if no one asked for VAT or was fined, prospective buyers werent prepared to take that risk, which then made documentation more important to owners than the VAT office!
 
The only original bill of sale you need is the one you got when you bought the boat from the previous owner.


Buying a boat in the eec from an individual who lives in the eec means that you are not reponsible for the vat on the boat. So your bill of sale (if its from an eec resident) is all you need to prove your boats VAT status
 
No, it does not prove "status" which is a bit of a slippery beast anyway!. If the transaction is between two private EU residents then it is not a "chargeable event" and therefore no VAT is involved. The "chargeable event" for a boat is when it first enters the "market" ie is sold by a builder or dealer to a private individual where the VAT has to be "accounted for" by the VAT registered vendor. A chargeable event can also arise when a boat is imported into the EU, whether new or used by an individual who is liable to pay VAT direct to HMRC based on the agreed value, which is normally the purchase price if recently acquired but could be on valuation.

As noted above, the only evidence of VAT is the original receipt, which may not have enough information on it anyway to tie it into a specific boat. For example, my VAT receipt identifies the boat by its Greek registration number which no longer exists as it is de-registered, so it would need to be read in conjunction with the Bill of Sale which has both the Registration number and the HIN.

If the original receipt is lost and many are, there is no way of checking unless the vendor has kept a copy - some builders do - and even then you would have to get it notarised as a true copy.

So, buying a boat privately does not provide evidence that VAT has been accounted for, only that you are not responsible for accounting for it! Subtle but perhaps explains why HMRC does not pursue people in this situation.
 
You are right.

The current owners bill of sale doesen't prove VAT status but does make someone else responsible for it. So all the current owner has to have is the original of his bill of sale.
 
After many exchanges of correspondence exploring this very question with experts from both of the above organisations. Below is a short excerpt from their correspondence......

The VAT liability is against the boat and HMRC have the power to seize the goods upon which the VAT liability accrued. If, in your scenario, Mr A absconds and Mr B’s boat is seized and sold to realise the VAT liability, Mr B may have a civil claim against Mr A for breach of contract.

They must be correct, dont you think?......... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
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