VAT - again

[rwakeham]

A while ago I saw someone post a link to the relevant Customs page on documents proving VAT paid. My boat was made in 1982 and has been on SSR since then. Needless to say the first owner does not have the original bill of sale. What can I do about proving the VAt status. I phoned the VAT office and they said tough !

 

[macd]

Forgive me if you already know this, but your boat would be exempt from VAT if you could prove:
1. That it was built before 31 Dec 1985.
AND
2. that it was in EC waters on 31 Dec 1992.

For the latter a marina receipt or similar would usually suffice, the conundrum being that you'd need to know where it was wintered in '92/93 in order to obtain a copy of the receipt.

 

[rwakeham]

I knew that there was something like that - but when I asked the VAT man about conditions and exemptions he said there were none. At least I know I am not going mad.

I can prove the boat was built before 1985 as I have photocopies of SSR registrations.

 

[silverseal]

VAT was started in September 1972, and thereafter all goods purchased in the UK and EU were subject to VAT. If they were exported to outside the Euro zone, then VAT was refunded.
If you own a yacht bought after 1972, built in EEC or UK then VAT will have been paid. It is not up to you to prove that VAT has been paid. Customs must prove that VAT has not been paid, and the only scenario that I can think of is that the yacht was either imported back in the EEC at some time between it manufacturing date and now. VAT has not been an optional tax since 1972, it having replaced purchase tax, and goods purchased within the EEC ( now EU) are deemed to have been paid unless it can be proved otherwise. Vans for example are sold second hand with VAT paid.. do you really think that someone will query whether a 20 year old van had vat paid at first registration?

 

[Talbot]

Your response is fine within UK. However will be ignored completely by French customs and thus will entail a fine and if you are really unlucky a big VAT bill. It will also mean that second hand value of your boat will be very low unless you have a suitable piece of paper. IMHO the VAT peoples attitude is reprehensible and RYA should be doing something - but dont hold your breath.

 

[AndrewB]

Talbot, are you sure Silverseal's right? It is not up to Customs to prove that VAT hasn't been paid, it's the owner's responsibility to provide evidence if required. I don't know about vans, but believe me oldish yachts are sometimes challenged, and being able to prove that it was built before 1985 is essential.

Macd has stated the only realistic conditions under which this yacht can claim exemption (except the first date should be 1st Jan 1985), if the original VAT receipts are untraceable. Again, my experience in spot checks is that the first of his two conditions is the one that EC Customs authorities are concerned about. UK Customs no longer issue the SAD or letters of exemption, it is necessary to carry aboard the documentary evidence that the yacht was built before 1985.

Unlike you, I sympathise with Customs here. This VAT issue has been running for 12 years now and it is no wonder that Customs tend to be snippy with people who ignored the transitional arrangements and still don't seem to be aware what the position is. IMHO, if a yacht owner can't produce evidence of its VAT status, then the yacht is worth 17½% less on the UK market: only a fool buys one on any other basis.

 

[jfm]

Silverseal, most of what you say is quite wrong, as a matter of law and of customs practice

Generally, Customs will not question the boat. But if there is any basis upon which they have a reasonable suspicion it is not VAT paid, they can and often will issue a VAT assessment. Once they do that, as a matter of law the burden of proof is reversed, and the yacht owner has to prove that VAT has been paid, else the assessment is enforced. This aint opinion, it's law.

So, having the VAT papers is definitely strongly recommended. But as a matter of practice there must be loads of old boats without the correct VAT paperwork, and customs have no reason to suspect thay are not VAT-paid, so customs of course leave them alone

 

[macd]

Andrew,
you may well be right about the date, and it doesn't matter either way in rwakeham's case, but I based my post on a YM 'Buying a Boat' special, which definitely stated 31.12.85 as the cut-off date.

 

[Birdseye]

" Unlike you, I sympathise with Customs here. This VAT issue has been running for 12 years now and it is no wonder that Customs tend to be snippy with people who ignored the transitional arrangements and still don't seem to be aware what the position is. "

Couldnt disagree with you more. HMC&E are civil servants but often are barely civil and certainly dont provide much of a service. They know if VAT has been re-claimed, or they are failing to keep proper records of the money they pay out. And if they know, why will they not help the public who pay their inflated salaries and index linked pensions?

Even the Inland Revenue are helpful by comparison.

 

[mickshep]

As all of my boats have up to now been built well before the introduction of V.A.T and within the E.U, I have had very little to do with this thorny subject. However, if I understand the previous posters correctly H.M.C&E have the information as to which vessels have paid V.A.T in this country but will not divulge this information, instead placing the burden of proof on us and swelling their coffers in the process.
If this is the case I would have thought that they will soon find themselves in breech of the new Freedom of information act, which as I understand it makes it practically impossible to withold information as long as it is requested under the said act. I may of course be totally wrong about this but it might be worth looking into. Merry Christmas all. Mike, Sam 'n' Shannon.

 

[FrayBentos]

[ QUOTE ]
As all of my boats have up to now been built well before the introduction of V.A.T and within the E.U, I have had very little to do with this thorny subject. However, if I understand the previous posters correctly H.M.C&E have the information as to which vessels have paid V.A.T in this country but will not divulge this information, instead placing the burden of proof on us and swelling their coffers in the process.
If this is the case I would have thought that they will soon find themselves in breech of the new Freedom of information act, which as I understand it makes it practically impossible to withold information as long as it is requested under the said act. I may of course be totally wrong about this but it might be worth looking into. Merry Christmas all. Mike, Sam 'n' Shannon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Customs are working overtime this weekend shredding all old records

 

[Birdseye]

Sorry Mickshep. You are misunderstanding the real relationship between the "civil servants" and yourself. Just like the Inland Revenue, where you have to keep records of income even when that income has already been declared to the revenue directly by an employer or a bank or a company registrar, so you are expected to keep records and prove your vat paid rather than the other way round. Freedom of information only really applies one way, from you to them. You are expected to help them, not the other way round. Half the time, you cant even get the name of the official you are dealing with!

We are not citizens, we are subjects.

Bah humbug. (Well it is Christmas!) /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Bergman]

Although I tend to share Birdseye's scepticism it is an interesting thought.

Probable response will be that since the original information was provided by someone other than you you cannot have access.

I think the shredding of documents and erasure of e-mails is an absolute scandal how do they get away with it.

 

[mickshep]

It could be more interesting than you think! As part of the local Coastguard S.A.R team we have just had a brief regarding the Freedom of information act and the amount of info we are obliged to reveal if asked by a member of the public. I have as yet not had chance to go through it in detail but will get back to the forums when I do. Another team member suggested after a quick read that if they (Gov Agency) have information pertinant to you, you can request to see it under the act and they are obliged to produce it. Having said this I have not yet had time to go into it in depth so no quoting me please!