Various regulators

ailsaboat

ailsaboat

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As I now liveaboard and am about to set off on an extended cruise, I'm planning to upgrade my charging ability.
I currently have a battery bank capacity of 400ah, charged with a 55amp alternator(internal regulator) and a reasonably large solar panel(can't remember the claimed output) with it's own regulator.
I plan to add a sterling advanced regulator for the alternator and an AirX wind gen which has an internal regulator.

My question is, how will these 3 regulators interact - How can each supposedly smart regulator monitor a battery bank that is being charged by another means. Surely each will get confused sensing the voltage from the other sytems??
 
Essentially if all the batteries are connected in paralell then it is the voltage of the batteries which dictates the charge of the various chargers. The advanced regulator will try to charge at a higher voltage ie 15 volts to get more current from the engine alternator into the batteries. This will effectively shut down any charge from the wind gen or solar which will be regulated to 14 volts.
Some types of solar (and wind regulators) simply bypass the current when the (battery terminal) voltage rises to 14 volts so it is conceivable that they will try to regulate (bypass the current to keep the battery voltage to 14 when the advanced regulator with engine running is trying to acheive 15 volts. The outcome could be very hot solar and wind regulators. (destruction) (and no extra charge into batteries)
So I would suggest you disconnect solar and wind when running the engine with an advanced regulator. good luck perhaps others have more wisdom on the subjest. It depends a lot on the design of the solar and wind regulators. olewill
 
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Some types of solar (and wind regulators) simply bypass the current when the (battery terminal) voltage rises to 14 volts so it is conceivable that they will try to regulate (bypass the current to keep the battery voltage to 14 when the advanced regulator with engine running is trying to acheive 15 volts

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That crossed my mind too. I wondered if they could be protected by diodes between them and the battery but that would sacrifice 0.6 or 0.7 volts and seriously reduce their usefullness.

I think it would be worth checking the solar panel regulator and the wind turbine regulator to see I they would suffer from what you fear or whether their internal circuitry protects them from that sort of thing. There must be many who use solar panels or wind turbines together with a smart alternator regulator and I think if this really was a problem we would know about it.
 
I am sure that the solar regulator will not be a problem in that respect but the AirX might and you'll need to check. I would do it for you but would rather not take the final responsibility. 55A alternator is a bit on the small side...is it an easy job to increase it to, say, 70A or 80A? The problem is that when you are motoring, hoping to put amps into the battery, you have to 'remove' the amps being used by the boat systems before arriving at net charging current. e.g. nav equipment, including radar, radio(s), gps, nav lights, fridge, interior lights, etc. Could be 20A or more leaving only 30A or so at full output. Few alternators will give this for long so you might end up charging at 25A or so for ages to get any significant charge into a 400Ahr battery.
 
They will all....

be trying to push their currently (no pun) available output into the batteries. The highest voltage from whatever source or combination of sources will win (and not to the detriment of the others) when it's individual best scenario prevails (ie best engine speed, wind strength or sun intensity) so don't worry since each controller will cut out it's client as and when it reaches it's maximum charge level (sustained voltage) howsoever it is achieved. Just think of three pumps of different flow rates and different 24hr. service profiles but closely similar pressures pushing into a three to one water pipe connection and then on into two or three different reservoirs of differing capacities

You might, because it's smallest, get a bit of over-charging in the starter battery which, assuming regular if not daily use will soon self regulate, and is, therefore, nothing to worry about.

I have the same set up in the Med. and it works fine.

Steve Cronin
 
That would be true if they are all series controllers but the question is what happens when one of them is a shunt regulator. Your water analogy is for series regulators.
 
On my previous yacht I had and air marine wind generator connected to two battery banks through a 1-2-both switch.
I had 2 sets of solar panels connected direct to each battery bank using a smart regulator for each bank and I had a smart regulator on my engine alternator connected using the same 1-2-both switch as the air marine.

With this arrangment all charging sources could be commected to all batteries. All worked find and self controlled as when the barrety votage increased each of the regulators would shut down as necessary.

The only thing I would do was when I left the yacht duriing the week I would switch the air marine off and the solar panel banks to each seperate battery bank and the regulator would control the charge seperatly.

On my new yacht I will be doing the same except the solar panels will be in 4 banks.
1 each for the 2 domestic banks, 1 for the seperate engine bank and the 4th bank through the main 1-2-both swith so it will charge the battery bank currently in use. I will also have a battery 1-2-both switch so that I can connect the engine start and domestic battery banks to supply either domestic or engine start for emergency

I did all this as I was liveaboard for several weeks at a time and the marine has no mains on the walkon mooring
 
Re: Shunt regulators

These should be consigned to the dustbin. All they do is generate heat. A very lazy way of protecting a battery. I had no idea that people were still using them. I chucked mine over 20 years ago so all that I said earlier excludes them.

Steve Cronin
 
We have both a big wind genny (Aerogen 6) and solar panels with 3 battery banks. We have 2 alternators with Adverc smart regulators and a 3 way shorepower smart charger for when we are plugged in.

The solar panels although big (1x75w and 1x110w) are unregulated, the 75w one is permanently mounted and can be switched off, the 110w one we move around on deck and can be plugged in via deck sockets to either of the main 2 battery banks, or of course not plugged in at all.

The wind generator is regulated and can feed any or all of the 3 battery banks via simple on/off switches.

I should add that we have ammeters that show individually the outputs from each solar panel as well as from the wind genny and we also have a display that shows the voltage of each battery bank.

On our berth and plugged in the fixed solar panel is switched off and the Aerogen6 tied off.

Under engine we will switch off the fixed solar panel and the Aerogen is tied off, neither would be damaged by the alternators but the Aerogen's regulator uses 2 big dump resistors to dump excess voltage and may well stop the smart Adverc alternator regulators from performing at their best. The bigger solar panel only comes out at anchor.

It sounds complicated but isn't really in practice since we start basically with the wind genny and fixed solar panel off and just add in what is needed at the time, usually the whole powerstation doesn't get fired up unless we are at anchor and staying more than just overnight.
 
Re: Shunt regulators

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These should be consigned to the dustbin. All they do is generate heat. A very lazy way of protecting a battery. I had no idea that people were still using them. I chucked mine over 20 years ago so all that I said earlier excludes them.

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I can't really comment on whether it is 'lazy' but all of the really big wind turbines and generators seem to need to dissipate heat. Have a look at the specs. The AirX is one of the bigger ones aimed at yachts and is in the cross-over point from leisure marine to terrestrial. I have been researching wind power over the past day or so for terrestrial use and I can assure you that it is common practice. I can see sound technical reasons for it that involve the dynamics of the generator and blades; you don't want to vary the load on the shaft instantaneously or it will cause damage and/or noise. Don't dismiss it out of hand too quickly, and definitely not overboard!!
 
LVM.....

...changed from a shunt regulator many years ago and the solar panel regulator sold by maplins works very well with either a panel or a turbine so I can't see why there are, as you say, others still using shunts.

Steve Cronin
 
Re Various regulators

I explained one reason why they might be doing it. I cannot see why it should be a problem to dissipate unwanted power taken from the available wind energy, if that power is an embarrassment at the instant. I suspect that it helps to keep the rotor speed down, avoiding high blade tip speed (a noise issue). One way is to feather the blades and another is to dump the energy. Feathering mechanisms are expensive and inherently less reliable than a resistor. Very small wind generators (e.g. Rutland and Forgen) of the sort than might be used with a small universal series regulator do not, perhaps, have the same issues, or at least not to the same extent.

I think we can safely assume that this is a good way to do it rather than that the sytems designers are lazy or complete idiots.

The original questioner raised a very good point. VicS points out correctly that everyone uses these things wired across batteries so clearly there is an easy way to wire them up, but it is just as well to check whether a diode is needed or whatever. The point needs to be checked by someone who really knows the actual system, such as the wind generator manufacturer. It is a good question and needs to be checked, not guessed at.
 
Re: Shunt regulators

Dont get confused here guys, the crappy old shunt regulators used to dump all excess current into a shunt load and allow it to get hot. If such a design was used on an AirX then some 300W would be absorbed by the shunt element. Concider that my mains kettle is only 500W so to get rid of 300W's takes some doing. The AirX might use a shunt device in its Autobrake mode but it will be almost a short circuit so not dissipate much, its action slowing the generator so its output is low. It could be that such a device applies the short electronically, so slowly so as not to damage the generator. That of course would be the opposite of the AirX stop device which is a brutal short across the generator.
 
Firstly, I very much doubt whether your mains kettle is only 500W - usually 2kW or 2.5kW. I agree that 300W sounds like a lot but maybe in this mode it does not deliver maximum power to the load which is what you are saying. However, if it is shunting the full load current then the original questioner's question remains valid - is there a risk that the shunt will also shunt other generating devices across the battery? The question is about whether the current is being shunted, not what the dissipation will be in the AirX 'diversion load'.

I have been researching other product for terrestrial applications today - modern ones with modern controls - and they have massive dissipative 'diversion loads'. Have a look at Whisper 500 and click on the manual. You'll see what I mean. It is a much larger bit of kit but the principle is the same.
 
Re: Re: Various regulators

Thanks to for all the advise, particularly those who pm'd me.
It seems to me that it's a reasonable proposition - but one that needs monitoring to make sure things are 'co-operating' (not a bad thing anyway)
Enough people seem to have done exactly what I plan on doing without blowing anything up. The main drawback I can see is a possible loss of efficiency when i need it most (low batteries and two or more sources producing well)

I think I'll go ahead and monitor the results - which I will post when I think I have some definite answers.

Thanks again
 
Re: Re: Various regulators

I find running a fridge all day uses as much power as can be supplied!
Occasionally if the fridge is off, the smart regulator flashes a light indicating batery voltage too high. This is cured by disconnecting the unregulated solar panels till motoring over.
If your system really can overcharge, you can add another service battery in parrallel.
 
Re: Re: Various regulators

You're lucky, I never seem to get quite enough charge to keep the whole lot up to date.

My only diffferecen from the OP's system is that my solar is un-regulated. However, it does have a diode to prevent reverse currents discharging the batteries when it's dark! (And perhaps damaging the panels?)
 
Re: Re: Various regulators

I run our watermaker from 12Vdc and we make our own water. Many is the time during the mid afternoon in the Med when the batteries are fizzing away at 14.3V in absorption mode. I wouldn't want solar without a regulator. I have 2 x 185W panels into 540Ah flooded lead acid, and no windpower. We do use a generator every morning to make hot water and put 80Ah or so into the batteries after the overnight, when the watermaker goes on and continues to run if we need it until gone lunchtime.
 
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