Vang Sheeting

[extravert]

Re: Vang Sheeting Asked Again

Well you did start off by saying small boats to superyachts. As I openly admit I have never sailed a superyacht I will now leave this discussion to between you and those of us here with superyachts.

In the mean time, when sailing a small boat (<15m) with both a traveller and a vang, I will take my guidance from <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.x99.dk/faster/tuning.htm>North Sails tuning guide</A>, particularly remembering the last sentence of the last 2 paragraphs of section 1.

<hr width=100% size=1>Summer is what you expect - rain is what you get.

 

[Sunnyseeker]

Re: Vang Sheeting Asked Again

I may have lost the point of this now? but
My experience is that...
A kicker/vang can control power, with a bendy rig you can pull it on and de-power, with a stiff rig you cant! In practice when racing on bendy rig with no traveller a strop centres the boom with a set kicker position and we use cunningham to de-power in sustained gusts, short gusts main sheet. Rigs with runners and checks we ease the checkstays in sustained gusts. Hydraulic Kickers can be pulled on easily but the boom will drop off to leeward as it gets closer to where the main sheet blocks are. Personnaly I've never found the kicker the best tool to initiate a quick de-power by mast bending.


<hr width=100% size=1>Oh ye who have your eyeballs vexed and tired feast them upon the wideness of the sea

 

[MainlySteam]

Re: Vang Sheeting Asked Again

I think you misunderstand extravert, there are performance cruising boats that are specifically designed to be the way I describe both large and small. They are often no compromise boats, are often custom one offs or of small runs, and are made to sail fast from a cruising point of view. They have been designed by people who know what they are doing where performance is concerned.

It seems that many forumites are not familiar with them at all, even though several have been reviewed in Yachting World at least over recent years (all designed, built and owned outside the UK as far as I can recall for those ones). I think that is the essential problem - people unfamiliar with the boats (perhaps even unaware such boats exist) are drawing conclusions on the basis of experiences on boats of entirely different concept and trimming needs.

The tuning guide you point to is for an X99, I do not see how that is in any way relevant to the types of boats that I am talking of. I do not see how you can draw conclusions about an entirely different type of boat on the basis of what is recommended for yours.

There are, however, race boats that are vang sheeted in particular conditions - I suggest that you do a google on vang sheeting and you will get plenty to browse through. You will also see that it is particularly common with racing dinghies - and much has come from dinghies to keelboats, your own boat owing a heritage to them at least in hull shape as originally initiated by Farr, Holland, etc. If you do a Google on vang sheeting north sails you will find that despite the apparant inapplicability of it to your own boat in Norths tuning guide for it, many of North's tuning guides for other different boats do advise vang sheeting for many instances of upwind sailing when racing.

It is the use of that I asked about in race boats, where it is applicable, and the use of it in performance cruising boats specifically designed to use it. You have contributed nothing to that whatsoever because, as you say yourself, it is not applicable to your own boat.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[flaming]

Re: Vang Sheeting Asked Again

You haven't actually answered my question. What is the difference between a vang fitted to a boat designed to be vang sheeted and a vang fitted to a boat with a traveller?

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[snowleopard]

Re: Vang Sheeting Asked Again

as i said, my rig has the characteristics you describe, the difference being that my vang is fixed and made of carbon fibre. all the downward force on the boom is generated by the vang and none from the sheet which controls only the angle to the centre line. that was your question wansn't it?

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[MainlySteam]

Re: Vang Sheeting Asked Again

Exactly so Snowleopard and I appreciate the comments you have made. I have had little exposure to sailing cats (but quite a lot with big powered ones) and will have a look around at some of their rigs.

Our own boat, while not a performance design by any means can be sailed using vang sheeting alone even though it has a wide traveller. That ability only comes about because the boat was designed in the first place with a strong rig (the boat was specifed to stand a 360 degree roll). As many performance monohulled cruising boats are now being designed with no travellers I am interested in views as to how they are performing and how they are being sailed - these are boats which in some instances are able to weather route so clearly, while they are not race boats, they are not much interested in much compromise to speed while remaining easy for a short crew to handle.

Regards

John



<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[MainlySteam]

Re: Vang Sheeting Asked Again

Sorry, I had thought that the answer to that was in my other posts although not specifically made in response to yours.

Because I am asking questions about boats with no travellers it is obvious that I am trying to find out more about them and how they are sailed so am seeking information myself (that was the intention of my original question). But in general terms there is no reason why a vang and boom cannot be made strong enough for the task. It is just a case of designing the boat to be so and as I state in my post response to Snowleopard ours turns out to be strong enough, but only as a result of other requirements of the boats specification that gave it a strong rig. As I have said, boats are being designed this way by some of the worlds best designers so it must be possible.

At one stage you mentioned that all solid vangs have rope purchases so a solid one is of no difference to a rope only one. Well, for a start, they all do not have rope purchases. Assuming the vang/boom has been designed to be strong enough in the first place for the task it is applied to, then:

Firstly, there are vangs which are dead solid so no adjustment is possible, but as these also appear on performance boats (I think these are what Snowleopard has referred to on a sailing cat) I assume there are good ways of trimming/sailing the boat.

Secondly, many are hydraulic in which case they are adjustable and solid at the point adjusted to.

For the remainder, as far as I am aware there are two main types, they incorporate springs or pneumatic struts and are adjusted by means of a rope tackle. Again, as long as designed to serve the purpose they are put to then I do not see what the issue is. We can winch our vang down and sail upwind in any winds capable of carrying the main in and appropriately reefed with no apparant threat to the rig. When pulled well up such a vang is essentially solid (whereas a rope one one is not) and I suspect that in boats relying on vang sheeting there are advantages in that.The answer to these and some other things are what I was hoping would come out of responses to my post from people with direct experience with boats set up for vang sheeting.

In most boats I think it is probably desirable to have a rigid vang instead of a rope only one in order to keep the boom up in light winds and I note that many tuning guides go along with that (and I do not dispute that along with that pulling the traveller car above amidships is often stated). If that is the main purpose of the vang then it obviously need not be so very strong and vang sheeting using it is likely to be a problem.

Some years ago we were forced into a crash gybe in around 35 - 40 knots with full main up. I suspect in many boats the rig would have come down but apart from the graze on the boom and the vang where they collided with the aft inner shroud they were unscathed. We had been sailing off the wind with the vang quite hard down so the loads must have been quite large. What was completely demolished, however, was the mainsheet traveller car (was a Lewmar one the only parts left on the boat was the top part attached to the block and one of the Delrin bearing balls, the rest had exploded into the sea). The car took the whole end assembly off the track.

So vangs/boom arrangements can be very strong and just as I do not judge travellers from the experience of having demolished one I do not think it is appropriate to judge vangs by the fact that some have been broken - it is all a case of the gear being designed for the particular task it is applied to in the first place - Well in my opinion, but the naval architects I deal with seem to make a point of trying to do that.

Trust that clarifies the situation as I see it to be.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Sunnyseeker]

Re: Vang Sheeting Asked Again

I seartched on Vang sheeting as you suggested and its all about de-powering....bendy rig only. All of us who sail boats without travellers have to use the kicker up wind (who doesn't) the vang sheeting as I read it means to de-power you haul on more kicker, fine we do that on the boats I sail with bendy rigs.
A rope kicker is rigid, if your useing dyneema or kevlar, as this stuff doesn't stretch, when your talking about pulling it on.
You say vang sheeting alone! you let the main go? you must control the sheeting angle with the main sheet surely. You use your kicker to adjust power.
Somehow I think there is some confusion as to what you think vang sheeting is and what I've been reading.
I was interested as I race and cruise a huge range of boats so any new ideas are always welcome or at least interesting to consider.
They include one off race boats and production (no traveller) big rig cruisers.


<hr width=100% size=1>Oh ye who have your eyeballs vexed and tired feast them upon the wideness of the sea

 

[snowleopard]

OK, try this....

twin mainsheets!

place the two mainsheet bases as far apart as possible and attach the upper ends to the centre of the boom. to sheet for a beat or close reach you position the boom with the weather sheet then take the twist out of the sail with the lee sheet. on a reach or run use the lee sheet only.

for gybing you have two options: in heavy weather, winch in on the weather sheet and ease the lee sheet as the leech comes through the wind so the boom is pinned down throughout and can't slam across. in light weather, take the weight on the weather sheet leaving the lee sheet free to run then turn to run by the lee till the boom come across.

i set up this system because i need no downforce on the boom from the sheet and it works very well. the only drawback is having to change which sheet is active when changing from close to beam reach or vice versa.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[flaming]

Re: Vang Sheeting Asked Again

Thank you for answering my question.

So in summary, the main difference in a vang that has been designed to be the sole downwards force on the boom going to windward in a blow is the size. Is this correct?

The problem with upsizing a bit of kit is the effect that it has. For example, upsize the vang to be the sole source of downforce of the boom. But it's in a mechanically awful position to provide downward force, so we'll have to upsize the boom to cope as well. Now we're genreating a large load at the gooseneck (a proportion ok the vang's force will of course act down the length of the boom) so we'll upsize the gooseneck to cope. And of course we'll have to upsize the section of mast to cope with this compressive load. So the mast gets heavier, which means we will need stronger rigging to support it. So the rig as a whole is heavier, and the boat is now more tender. Well, no problem, we'll add a bit of weight in the keel. But now the boat's slower, so we'll add a bit of sail area, and now the sail's bigger I think we should upsize the vang..........

One other thing that I have to slightly take issue with is your statement that the vang must have been under a lot of load going downwind. In my experience there is much less force in the vang downwind than if you use it to take the load to windward. And of course all vangs are designed to cope downwind!

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[MainlySteam]

Re: Vang Sheeting Asked Again

<<<and cruise a huge range of boats >>>

Then you will know exactly the boats I mean.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[MainlySteam]

Re: OK, try this....

I have seen photos of a monohull with a similar arrangement too - am trying to remember where, but it was a largish vessel with two parts to the mainsheet out to each side of the boat.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[MainlySteam]

Re: Vang Sheeting Asked Again

Well again I can only suggest that you go and tell the designers of these vessels that they have it all wrong. I am sure that they will value your opinion.

Of course the load on the vang is not so high downwind - if you reread my post you will see that I was referring to the instance in a crash gybe in 35 - 40 knots.

I think it is a waste of time responding to you as it is just endless retorts and convolutions either because you have no idea what you are talking about or you just want to be a nuisance. I suspect the former as your posts are not even oriented to the question I asked and flying in the face of the fact that competent designers are designing such vessels. I will side with the designers opinions and ignore yours, in which case it would seem that you will be wasting your time with me.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[MainlySteam]

Thanks for the intelligent responses to my question from several posters, I appreciate your views.

As there are a few who apparantly have no idea what the question is let alone any ability to answer it and are determined to demonstrate their ignorance to the world, I will not be monitoring this thread for any other responses to what I asked.

Thanks again.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[flaming]

Re: Vang Sheeting Asked Again

Ok, I'll stop wasting my time then. I've provided you with a number of first hand experiences that specifically answered the question you asked and told you exactly what I observed and the conclusions that I reached. It's up to you what you make of that.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Aja]

John

Not wanting to get involved in this debate - I admit I dont understand enough to contribute - but maybe if you gave some indication of exactly the types of boats you are refering to (classes/names/designers) it may help me to understand your original query and the replies of others better.

Regards

Donald

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Samakand]

Obviously many people have not sailed in a dinghy designed or built since the 70's so.
Vang sheeting: vang controls downward boom force, mainsheet just pulls boom in and out
Reaching especially, mainsheet now days works continuously. You just cannot do that with multiple purchases, and a traveller is too slow. Vang however has to be very high purchase, and gets adjusted also very frequently, played like a traveller.
Pull boom above midline in light weather by hand, since the sheet is straight off the boom.

Vang sheeting is limited to lighter loads. It is not generally used in cats due to their very high load, and with their width its easier to use a traveller as you don't need to let the boom out far due to the change in apparent wind. Loads on bigger cats are very high and can be expensive...I have very practical experience.

Currently I also own an older monohull, 33feet. Masthead rig,small main vintage. Increasing the vang purchase ++, reducing the mainsheet purchase and getting rid of the traveller out of the cockpit has made more room and safer and easier cruising.


<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[MainlySteam]

I have no wish to continue any debate on these boats either. However, given the fact that some have now expressed interest to me, and Samarkand (and a couple of others) knowing exactly what I am referring to, for the sake of any with a genuine interest these are some examples (I have tried to list European ones and while these are mostly larger vessels, that is mainly because they are the ones that get the most press so are easiest to point to).

The Shipman 50 was the European Yacht of the Year 2003 and was reviewed in Yachting World March 2004. It can be seen on http://www.x-yachts.com under the Cruising Yachts menu. It shows it rigged in the same manner as the Shipman 50 (of course they may change that on the production boat, but currently is shown so).

Greg Elliot here in NZ and who normally designs race boats internationally has been designing some performance cruising boats, 12.5m to 15.5m, and were reviewed in Yachting World August 2003 - a couple of those are travellerless. His internet site is <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.elliott-marine.com>http://www.elliott-marine.com</A> and if one works ones way through the yachts menu to cruising boats and look for the 1250 Tourer there is quite a clear picture of a travelerless performance cruiser. Elliot has a reputation for designing very fast race boats and I suspect his cruising vessels will be the same.

I am interested in trimming methods on boats like these, or failing that experiences on those race boats where vang sheeting <font color=red>IS</font color=red> part of their tuning repertoire.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>