vacum gauge on prefilters/waterseparators, any use?

[vas]

dear all,

as part of the ongoing rebuilt and refit process, I removed my Separ 2000/5 filters, dismantled, cleaned, checked and refitted them.
New flex hoses under construction, should be all back in place early next week.
However, checking on the web at the separ webpage I noticed that there was a version of my filters with little gauges on the engine side of the fuel line (as in after the filter) measuring vacum.
I can understand that these vacum gauges will be able to give a clue on when filters are blocked or a leak develps (which there's other ways to measure/establish anyway...)

So, to come to the question, I can fit such gauges on mine for around 20euro a pop. Is it worth it, or should I go and buy ice cream and chocolate instead???
[and I'm afraid Steve shouldn't reply as I understand he's a little biased...]

cheers

V.

 

[Bandit]

If the fuel supplied to you is of good quality and clean, If your fuel in the tank is clean, treated with a good biocide such as Grotamar 87 and you regularly drain the pre filter and inspect the element ( assuming it is not a sealed cartridge type) and you strip water and crud from your tank on a regular basis you should not need a vacuum gauge.

At the end of the season say 110 hours running my filter elements are stained dark grey but no noticeable slime and the odd bit of debris, hair and general crud.

Saying the above I am not in the warmer climes such as Greece.

 

[vas]

If the fuel supplied to you is of good quality and clean, If your fuel in the tank is clean, treated with a good biocide such as Grotamar 87 and you regularly drain the pre filter and inspect the element ( assuming it is not a sealed cartridge type) and you strip water and crud from your tank on a regular basis you should not need a vacuum gauge.

At the end of the season say 110 hours running my filter elements are stained dark grey but no noticeable slime and the odd bit of debris, hair and general crud.

Saying the above I am not in the warmer climes such as Greece.

nice, considering that the PO hasn't done any of the 5 ifs and I'm going to work towards if #3&4 and possibly 5 leaves me with a "hm maybe" situation
Seriously, diesel supplied here could be good (I've got a couple of decent places in Volos, but don't know whom to choose anywhere else) or carp, tanks are 35+ yo, there was a bit of crud on the separs glass bowl, I've fitted a drain cock to the brand new 5lt clearing tank which should be enough to keep me going.

Out of curiosity, what is the negative pressure built in the pipe from the filter to the engine pump? I guess less than a bar, right?

cheers

V.

 

[David2452]

Like all gauges, a vacuum gauge is useful as you can establish a norm and from there can monitor even relatively small changes and investigate / rectify before it becomes critical. Personally I would like to see them in a more easily and regularly monitored site than the engine room though, shouldn't be difficult to acomplish.

 

[Latestarter1]

A fuel vacuum gauge can be a real boon if properly understood.

Fuel pressure drop across a filter is a function of fuel flow vs. restriction, and a properly designed fuel filter system, should start out CLEAN with less 3" of Hg (mercury) restriction.

If we assume most diesel engines with properly operating lift pumps and fuel systems can tolerate a maximum of about 10" of Hg restriction before starving for fuel, therefore you have ongoing view of the state of your filtration system.

 

[omega2]

The end result is always the same, phut phut stop.Keep it clean!!

 

[MapisM]

A fuel vacuum gauge can be a real boon if properly understood.
...

All agreed LS, but in the few cases when I heard (never experienced it myself, touch wood) of filter troubles in pleasure boats, it was always due to some "sudden/unpredicted" reason, like dirt detaching from the interior tank walls or water sucked from the bottom.
I would guess that the scenario of filters slowly building up restrictions, which is where the vacuum gauge can provide an effective early warning, is more typical of commercial vessels whose running hours compared to pleasure boats is tenfold+...

I'm not recommending Vas to go for ice cream and chocolate instead, but personally I wouldn't rule out such alternative...

 

[LittleShip]

Personal view only.....

I would rather see a vacuum gauge than an oil pressure gauge. How many times do you hear about boats stopping from oil starvation as opposed to fuel starvation. A vacuum gauge warns of fuel starvation before it becomes a problem, fit it on the dash board where is can easily be seen.

Tom.

 

[Latestarter1]

All agreed LS, but in the few cases when I heard (never experienced it myself, touch wood) of filter troubles in pleasure boats, it was always due to some "sudden/unpredicted" reason, like dirt detaching from the interior tank walls or water sucked from the bottom.
I would guess that the scenario of filters slowly building up restrictions, which is where the vacuum gauge can provide an effective early warning, is more typical of commercial vessels whose running hours compared to pleasure boats is tenfold+...

I'm not recommending Vas to go for ice cream and chocolate instead, but personally I wouldn't rule out such alternative...

Some people still do not get it………If you have a properly designed multi stage fuel filtration system you will not be presented with any nasty surprises. For example if you have a good gatekeeper picking up boulders, mud, crud and other fuel tank debris for example a Fleetguard FF5013 is a good start it offers a 20 mic BETA rating, a flow rate of 100 GPH clean ½" Hg pressure drop, has a built-in water drain, no daft plastic bowls to leak or discolour, no need to see the crud restriction gauge will tell you.

If you have a serious bug problem and need to scrub your tanks the Fleetguard FS 1218 is just the ticket, about 250 GPH flow rate, has a crud capacity of about 7 times that of a Racor 1000, and has all the best needed features for use as a high capacity primary bulk separator.

A year or so back there was a poster here with a serious contaminated fuel problem, I supplied him with a two stage set up, the bulk separator was changed every time restriction got near to 8 inches of Hg, and gradually the frequency between filter changes grew longer as the fuel became polished the bulk separator was lasting about a year before restriction started to climb.

Good filtration practice is simply elimination of nasty surprises.

 

[NormanS]

Some people still do not get it………If you have a properly designed multi stage fuel filtration system you will not be presented with any nasty surprises. For example if you have a good gatekeeper picking up boulders, mud, crud and other fuel tank debris for example a Fleetguard FF5013 is a good start it offers a 20 mic BETA rating, a flow rate of 100 GPH clean ½" Hg pressure drop, has a built-in water drain, no daft plastic bowls to leak or discolour, no need to see the crud restriction gauge will tell you.

If you have a serious bug problem and need to scrub your tanhyks the Fleetguard FS 1218 is just the ticket, about 250 GPH flow rate, has a crud capacity of about 7 times that of a Racor 1000, and has all the best needed features for use as a high capacity primary bulk separator.

A year or so back there was a poster here with a serious contaminated fuel problem, I supplied him with a two stage set up, the bulk separator was changed every time restriction got near to 8 inches of Hg, and gradually the frequency between filter changes grew longer as the fuel became polished the bulk separator was lasting about a year before restriction started to climb.

Good filtration practice is simply elimination of nasty surprises.

Better still to remove all the nasty surprises from the tank before they get to all your filters, separators, etc. If your tank has a drainable sump, gravity will do it for you, at no expense.

 

[Bandit]

LS the problem I have seen with a fleetguard is that its a canister, so unless you hacksaw the end off you cant see the contamination, I have changed to large Racor filters/elements so you can see it.

 

[penfold]

LS the problem I have seen with a fleetguard is that its a canister, so unless you hacksaw the end off you cant see the contamination, I have changed to large Racor filters/elements so you can see it.

That's why you have vacuum guages, then you don't need to be able to see the sludge as you know it's there.

 

[Powersalt]

Some people still do not get it………If you have a properly designed multi stage fuel filtration system you will not be presented with any nasty surprises. For example if you have a good gatekeeper picking up boulders, mud, crud and other fuel tank debris for example a Fleetguard FF5013 is a good start it offers a 20 mic BETA rating, a flow rate of 100 GPH clean ½" Hg pressure drop, has a built-in water drain, no daft plastic bowls to leak or discolour, no need to see the crud restriction gauge will tell you.

If you have a serious bug problem and need to scrub your tanks the Fleetguard FS 1218 is just the ticket, about 250 GPH flow rate, has a crud capacity of about 7 times that of a Racor 1000, and has all the best needed features for use as a high capacity primary bulk separator.



A year or so back there was a poster here with a serious contaminated fuel problem, I supplied him with a two stage set up, the bulk separator was changed every time restriction got near to 8 inches of Hg, and gradually the frequency between filter changes grew longer as the fuel became polished the bulk separator was lasting about a year before restriction started to climb.

Good filtration practice is simply elimination of nasty surprises.

Very interesting. What do you think of these MLS fuel purifiers? they I assume clean the crude out of the fuel before the filters, can be easily drained and from what you are all saying would eliminate the need for gauges and more expensive filters

 

[Latestarter1]

Very interesting. What do you think of these MLS fuel purifiers? they I assume clean the crude out of the fuel before the filters, can be easily drained and from what you are all saying would eliminate the need for gauges and more expensive filters

The Fleetguard filters I quoted are at most about £20 a pop. Baldwin or Donaldson equivalents can be around 10% cheaper. All three makes are universally available either on line or from commercial vehicle factors.

Having looked at the website wild horses would not drag me anywhere that stuff......I cannot see a proper technical specification/performance curve anywhere and prices are outrageous. No hint of meeting filtration Beta ratings let alone micron ratings. Many filter, engine, and hydraulic equipment companies do not even recognise micron ratings as significant and specifically recommend the use of Beta ratio as a guide in selecting a filter to meet system requirements. Beta ratio (multi-pass test method) ANSI/B93.31-1973, ISO 4572-1981; this is the only test accepted by ANSI, ISO and NFPA. It is the industry standard for measurement of efficiency.

The Beta ratio is determined by counting the number of particles over a given size upstream of the filter and dividing that number by the number of particles over the given size downstream of the filter. Simply put, a nominal 2 micron filter may only capture 94% of 2 micron particles, 98% of particles 10 microns, and close to 100% of particles above 10 microns.

Looking at the endorsements all generic stuff which smacks of no specific OEM approval which rings alarm bells straight away.

Finally you invest big $$ in this stuff then in five years time you search on the internet and find they have disappeared like a thief in the night..

 

[Powersalt]

Hmm I wondered, was pretty close to buying a set as although my extensive use of Marine 16 seems to have broken down my bug I am still left with a little dark drown in the bottom of the tank and I thought these would eliminate any worry I might have as to filter blockages.

 

[vas]

a joy reading all the views and suggestions, thanks!

I'm tempted to get the gauges, but I agree that having them at the e/r where I'm NOT going to be happy to be there with engines running at 2K rpm! is an issue.
I hear LST suggestion of getting them in my dash, only I've designed the whole thing again and I've got all my matching VDO gauges up and no space for two more.
Further, I'm not sure a 4m tubing to remote mount an analogue gauge at the helm is a smart idea as a leak on that pipe will lead to stalling the engine.
Cleaning the tanks is NOT an option, fully inaccesible on top, no inspection hatches. Further I don't seem to have any crud/bug/other issues other than normal stuff accumulated after 35+years and 3K hours (combined on the DDs and the Ivecos)

One reasonable solution would be to get an electronic sender unit for the filters (means that no pipes and other complications leading to leaks) and extra gauges on the dash. Idealy I could toggle measurements from turbo pressure to fuel vacum on the same gauges, but 0-2bar pressure to -0.5-0bar vacum is most likely incompatible
LS, 10inch Hg is 0.3bar, so I really need a fairly sensitive 0-0.5bar vacum gauges, correct?

Will think about it a bit more and see what I can come up with. Looks like it's going to cost me at least a months supply of chocolate and ice cream for the whole family

cheers

V.

 

[John100156]

Well, one possible solution if you have Raymarine kit on board and no space for gauges, as a last resort, you could always place a camera to look at a couple of gauges - the're getting cheap as chips nowadays.

 

[Latestarter1]

a joy reading all the views and suggestions, thanks!

I'm tempted to get the gauges, but I agree that having them at the e/r where I'm NOT going to be happy to be there with engines running at 2K rpm! is an issue.
I hear LST suggestion of getting them in my dash, only I've designed the whole thing again and I've got all my matching VDO gauges up and no space for two more.
Further, I'm not sure a 4m tubing to remote mount an analogue gauge at the helm is a smart idea as a leak on that pipe will lead to stalling the engine.
Cleaning the tanks is NOT an option, fully inaccesible on top, no inspection hatches. Further I don't seem to have any crud/bug/other issues other than normal stuff accumulated after 35+years and 3K hours (combined on the DDs and the Ivecos)

One reasonable solution would be to get an electronic sender unit for the filters (means that no pipes and other complications leading to leaks) and extra gauges on the dash. Idealy I could toggle measurements from turbo pressure to fuel vacum on the same gauges, but 0-2bar pressure to -0.5-0bar vacum is most likely incompatible
LS, 10inch Hg is 0.3bar, so I really need a fairly sensitive 0-0.5bar vacum gauges, correct?

Will think about it a bit more and see what I can come up with. Looks like it's going to cost me at least a months supply of chocolate and ice cream for the whole family

cheers

V.

Not sure why added complexity is needed, you have old tanks which could represent problems in the future. If you turn your present system into a two stage set up with a pre-filter in front of your Separ, which you can then switch to 10 micron elements giving you a real nice set up.

With a properly sized filtration system there will be no sudden surprises, just a quick check of the gauges as part of your pre-flight check and life is good, no need to become part of information overload. It is only the Mickey Mouse installations which present their owners with sudden problems whilst under way.

Also remember in the unlikely event spin on filters can be changed in a trice even in a seaway, having first suffered sea sickness in an engine room in 1965 nothing much has changed and the prospect of pulling a Racor or Separ apart whilst under way fills me with terror however changing a spin on cartridge I can cope with. The poster who willfully downgraded his spin on filter by replacing it with a fiddly inadequate Racor leaves me dumbfounded.

Take a look at http://designatedengineer.com/DragPointerLookDown.html Tim sells some nice quality stuff and will ship to Europe.

 

[Bandit]

With the greatest respect to LS's last post.
It is important that the diesel fuel in your tank is clean, bug free and that you remove water, bug residue and accumulated crud and debris that accumulates over the years. We are talking about a boat not a car/truck where with a fuel problem or blockage you quietly coast to the side of the road and wait for the AA to turn up.
LS You have no idea what size Racor filters I have have do you?
My point above was I had an increasing bug problem and with the Fleetguard filters and you have no idea there was any problem at all as the fuel in the plastic bowl was clear and water free and all the crud was seled away in the filter where you cant see it. One engine started to hunt and I had one of these magnetic bug busters in the line ( not and OEM one ) fitted by the previous owner, we dismantled this and found it bunged full of debris and bug so we then removed the FG filters and cut one open on the bench ( not an easy or nice job) only then do you realise that there is an increasing bug/debris problem that needs sorting out.
I agree a good filtration system is essential but one where you actually realise the quality of the fuel arriving at your pre filters is necessary as well. I like partway through the season to lift the filter elements and to inspect them to judge for myself.

If fuel vacuum gauges help you sleep better at night by all means get a set but make sure you can easily read them and when the engine is at full chat.

With regard to vas's problem after all these years with the boat in a hot climate and dubious fuel quality I would treat the tanks with a shock dose of biocide and after a week of not using the boat , remove the lids holding the tank senders and get the tanks remotely filtered and if at all possible get a lance into the corners and bottom of the tank and pick up the bad stuff and remove it. I would prefer to know that I have clean fuel in the tanks rather than to rely purely on filters picking up the problem.

If the fuel is badly contaminated with bug and debris also consider the fuel pick up can suddenly become blocked completely if the fuel in the tank is bad.

Vas are you using a biocide with every re fuel? I assume that in Greece you have this low sulphur 5 to 10 % bio content **** that we are getting here, all that does is increase the problem.

 

[Latestarter1]

I am only focused on fuel systems for marine applications, intrinsically safe ones.

Bandit whoever designed your vessels fuel system appears to have slung you under a bus and if you had understood what you were dealing with you could have used all manner of options using existing filter head even some with clear bowls for those who need it.

I actually looked at your vessel and concluded that you had switched to Racor 1000MA's why use anything else?

Vessel obviously has history of fuel contamination particularly if pick up was becoming blocked and you were an ideal candidate for two stage filtration using a bulk separator in front of your Racor which would have given you a bomb proof installation instead of throwing baby out with the bath water. Setup suggested for Vas for exactly the reasons you have outlined.

Decent restriction gauges will have drag pointers.

Not sure why you are on low sulfur fuel, Greece is EU country therefore on zero sulfur fuel plus bio element like the rest of us.