Using hydrochloric acid in the toilets
- Thread starter tudorsailor
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Billjratt
Well-Known Member
If your equipment is in good condition, agua fuerte can work miracles - even right down the out-going pipe. Just get it in there, pump it gently down until the system is full, then go to the side of the boat and watch the fun.
There is one caveat, however. If the calcium is sealing any cracks or other gaps in the system you will have some repair work to do. Any signs of cracking or crazing on plastic pumps, spigots etc. would mean caution or a different method - or replacement...
If you're a big fearty, and don't like acid - use coke (not diet) and leave for longer.
Of course if you gave it the correct number of strokes in the first place, you wouldn't have the problem.
There is one caveat, however. If the calcium is sealing any cracks or other gaps in the system you will have some repair work to do. Any signs of cracking or crazing on plastic pumps, spigots etc. would mean caution or a different method - or replacement...
If you're a big fearty, and don't like acid - use coke (not diet) and leave for longer.
Of course if you gave it the correct number of strokes in the first place, you wouldn't have the problem.
greenalien
Well-Known Member
I think any of the toilet cleaners that claim to remove limescale - such as Harpic - contain hydrochloric acid - which is, incidentally, the main acid in the human stomach - not a recommendation for drinking it but does say something about its bio credentials.
ff_nick
Well-Known Member
Yes last poster is right ^^^^^. Domestos power gel and co are HCL, >10% w/v according to the back of the pack.
jimbaerselman
Well-Known Member
The most vulnerable components of marine toilet systems are the seals. A comparison of the corrosive effect of 36% acetic acid (vinegar . . .) against the effect of 30% hydrochloric acid (HCl) on a wide range of seal materials, showed both had only mild effects, with HCl affecting fewer materials. Lower concentrations will have negligible effects. Much greater corrosion is caused by oxidants - typically hypochlorites, or "bleach". (PS: never, ever, mix acids with bleach. Gives off free chlorine gas - highly toxic)
UK sold Harpic uses 6% solution of HCl (plus surfactants, thickeners and colourants to make them stick to upper surfaces) and costs some 3 or 4 times as much per litre as 30% HCl. So Harpic has only 1/15th effect per £ that HCl does. Buying a similarly product branded for yottie use will drop the effect per £ even more.
Coca cola contains carbonic acid and phosphoric acid, but the concentration is very low, so I shudder to think how the cost per litre needed compares with HCl. I suspect it may be more effective to ask seasickness sufferers to laugh into the porcelain megaphone . . . using their stomach HCl (1% or so) to solve the problem.
UK sold Harpic uses 6% solution of HCl (plus surfactants, thickeners and colourants to make them stick to upper surfaces) and costs some 3 or 4 times as much per litre as 30% HCl. So Harpic has only 1/15th effect per £ that HCl does. Buying a similarly product branded for yottie use will drop the effect per £ even more.
Coca cola contains carbonic acid and phosphoric acid, but the concentration is very low, so I shudder to think how the cost per litre needed compares with HCl. I suspect it may be more effective to ask seasickness sufferers to laugh into the porcelain megaphone . . . using their stomach HCl (1% or so) to solve the problem.
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SimonJ
Well-Known Member
Heads cleaning
I have done it several times using acid sold to me as a swimming pool additive - Muriatic acid, which is the old fashioned name for Hydrochloric acid. If you live onboard or cruise a lot your system will without a doubt become scaled up. The acid is VERY dangerous stuff. Fuming toxic mists will emerge from the contained as soon as you open it. This is very nasty for you. You MUST operate with good ventilation, protective clothing, rubber gloves goggles etc. Even if you dilute it you have to be careful as you may well cause a reaction.
If you dilute find out how to do it first. (You should not need to dilute.)
Nigel Calder's Maintenance book has a good section on cleaning the head system with muriatic.
Basically add from the container a cupful or two, stand back and leave alone. There will likely be lots of smelly reaction, bubbling etc as the scale is decomposed. Then after a while, 5 mins?, pump a little to move the 'slug' of acid along the system. Do this a section at a time. When the bubbling reaction ceases the acid has either done its job or is no longer strong enough to work! You will have to add more acid from time to time.
There seems to be nothing of concern in terms of being gobbled up by the acid in the heads system (apart from you!) although as noted by another contributor, any potential leaks up to the point of acid treatment that have been sealed by scale will start to leak again!
I have done it several times using acid sold to me as a swimming pool additive - Muriatic acid, which is the old fashioned name for Hydrochloric acid. If you live onboard or cruise a lot your system will without a doubt become scaled up. The acid is VERY dangerous stuff. Fuming toxic mists will emerge from the contained as soon as you open it. This is very nasty for you. You MUST operate with good ventilation, protective clothing, rubber gloves goggles etc. Even if you dilute it you have to be careful as you may well cause a reaction.
If you dilute find out how to do it first. (You should not need to dilute.)
Nigel Calder's Maintenance book has a good section on cleaning the head system with muriatic.
Basically add from the container a cupful or two, stand back and leave alone. There will likely be lots of smelly reaction, bubbling etc as the scale is decomposed. Then after a while, 5 mins?, pump a little to move the 'slug' of acid along the system. Do this a section at a time. When the bubbling reaction ceases the acid has either done its job or is no longer strong enough to work! You will have to add more acid from time to time.
There seems to be nothing of concern in terms of being gobbled up by the acid in the heads system (apart from you!) although as noted by another contributor, any potential leaks up to the point of acid treatment that have been sealed by scale will start to leak again!
Ricd
Well-Known Member
I have used brick acid (dead cheap) to clean the calcification off of a number of parts....again I think it is HCL
Frankie-H
Well-Known Member
I have used French chlorhydrique - hydrochloric - acid for many years. It is 23% strength and I then dilute it to a further 25% - 1 ltr acid to 3 ltrs od warm water. I fill the lavac to the normal water level and pump 'till it just vanishes from the bowl. I leave it for 15 mins and repeat the process. 4 ltrs enable this to be done about 3 times. I very seldom take the lavac to bits. Please be very careful of cleaning your valuable engine bits with non diluted acid. I was advised to clean all the waterways in this way and it punched several holes through my fresh water header tank in about 5 minutes. Never ever use it on aluminium!! Cost several hundred £s to have a new one sent from the UK.
NPMR
Well-Known Member
Damn, I've just spent the afternoon doing just that - and I could have used some 'gunk' and had a nice sit-down instead!
Looks nice and clean now but will it leak when we next use it - first time it's been apart since new 10 years ago!
JayBee
Well-Known Member
Really??
Jeez, I treat the stuff with respect, but normally while wearing shorts and a T shirt. Ventilation is a good idea and I suppose it is a good idea not to throw the stuff around or inhale deeply from the rim of the toilet bowl.
VicS
Well-Known Member
Some brick cleaners are hydrochloric acid, some are not.
All you can do is read the label and perhaps the material safety data sheet.
If either gives any indication of the concentration as % HCl then you know where you stand regarding dilution.
Concentrated hydrochloric acid is normally about 36% HCl. It gives off fumes of hydrogen chloride and is unpleasant, and dangerous, to handle from that point of view alone.
For the purposes being discussed I would tend to dilute it to give something around 5% HCl. Less for light scaling. Perhaps more for very heavy scaling provided I was happy nothing could be damaged.
That may mean the brick cleaner you buy wont need further dilution.
I have no idea of the concentration of what is sold in foreign places under the name of aqua feurte.
JayBee
Well-Known Member
Agua Fuerte I have bought in Spain and Portugal is normally around 30% by volume or a little less. I add about a cupful of this straight from the bottle to a toilet bowl half full of clean seawater. No dramatic consequences follow.
Same procedure with the Spirits of Salt from my local ironmonger, which is sold for similar purposes. It is 32% Hcl by volume and has the usual warnings on the label, but anyone can buy it over the counter without having to go on a course or get a permit.
My experience is that dosing the heads with this from time to time does absolutely no harm to the vitreous china, neoprene, stainless steel or plastic components of a Lavac heads system, or to my prop or my Blake's seacocks.
It does, however, attack aluminium, so keep it away from alloy toerails or cleats.
Same procedure with the Spirits of Salt from my local ironmonger, which is sold for similar purposes. It is 32% Hcl by volume and has the usual warnings on the label, but anyone can buy it over the counter without having to go on a course or get a permit.
My experience is that dosing the heads with this from time to time does absolutely no harm to the vitreous china, neoprene, stainless steel or plastic components of a Lavac heads system, or to my prop or my Blake's seacocks.
It does, however, attack aluminium, so keep it away from alloy toerails or cleats.
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VicS
Well-Known Member
If its 30% by volume then it means it is 30 parts of concentrated hydrochloric acid diluted to 100 parts ( or 3 diluted to 10)
the HCl concentration will therefore be approx 10 to 11 %
snooks
Well-Known Member
There's nothing quite like sailing...
Harnessing the power supply in nature, using the wind to get from one place to another without causing pollution or disturbance to wildlife, relaxing in a quiet anchorage, watching the birds swooping down to the water around you, then pouring a load of acid into the sea
Do nature a favour.......Just pump more and avoid the problem in the first place
Obviously if it's going into a holding tank that's alright innit, I mean there's no way that's going into the sea is there
Harnessing the power supply in nature, using the wind to get from one place to another without causing pollution or disturbance to wildlife, relaxing in a quiet anchorage, watching the birds swooping down to the water around you, then pouring a load of acid into the sea
Do nature a favour.......Just pump more and avoid the problem in the first place
Obviously if it's going into a holding tank that's alright innit, I mean there's no way that's going into the sea is there
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Nostrodamus
Well-Known Member
Is it good for descaling kettles?
What about putting it down sinks and shower traps?
What about putting it down sinks and shower traps?
aquaplane
Well-Known Member
It will descale a kettle but it will also attack the metal parts. Of course it's easier to look in a kettle to see whats going on than in toilet pipes, use dilute and thouroughly wash out when the crud has gone.
Sinks and showers usually clog with fat, you need caustic to shift that. As warm as you can get it softens the fat and lets the caustic react with it quicker. If you get caustic on yourself your skin turns to soap, wash it off ASAP untill the affected bit doesn't feel slippy, use gloves is better advice.
Caustic, especially hot, will attack vitreous enamel so don't let it linger on that or you will have zero brownie points and a dull finish on the bath if you aren't carefull.
Sinks and showers usually clog with fat, you need caustic to shift that. As warm as you can get it softens the fat and lets the caustic react with it quicker. If you get caustic on yourself your skin turns to soap, wash it off ASAP untill the affected bit doesn't feel slippy, use gloves is better advice.
Caustic, especially hot, will attack vitreous enamel so don't let it linger on that or you will have zero brownie points and a dull finish on the bath if you aren't carefull.
Ricd
Well-Known Member
Not sure, agree with the calculation of 30% by vol but as the OP states that the stuff from the ironmongers is 32% by volume. Conc HCL comes in both 10 and c.11.5 Molar. The the 11.5M stuff is HCL 36% and the 10M stuff is HCl 32%...sounds like the stuff from the Ironmonger might be conc HCl.
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VicS
Well-Known Member
Acids attack vitreous enamel .... I did not realise that caustic does too.
Frankie-H
Well-Known Member
Use white vinegar for the kettle. A little poured directly into the cold water and the boil. The kettle heater tray might be aluminium - see above
JayBee
Well-Known Member
There's nothing quite like sailing...
Harnessing the power supply in nature, using the wind to get from one place to another without causing pollution or disturbance to wildlife, relaxing in a quiet anchorage, watching the birds swooping down to the water around you, then pouring a load of acid into the sea
Ah, the romance of sailing. The trouble with this sensitivity (and a lot of ecological concerns) is that it lacks all sense of proportion. My cupful of 30% Hcl is added to countless billions of tonnes of salt water in the open sea perhaps twice a year.
I remember the outrage when Shell wanted to dispose of the Brent Spar, suitable cleaned up, at sea. The vociferous opponents of this plan didn't seem to be aware of the tens of thousands of wrecks irretrievably lying on our sea beds, containing god knows what toxic substances. At least they provide some fishy shelter from the trawl net, if not from sea anglers.
Maybe time to move to the Lounge?