Using a yacht instead of a flat - settle an argument?

Carcassi

I have just sent a PM to you with details of a flat alongside Liverpool University site. It is in a block that I just sold a slightly larger flat that my daughter lived in whilst at Liverpool University, so it is very convenient and has on site car parking (the university charge you for parking on site). THis I feel would be your best option.
 
Don't let the nay-sayers put you off - what you are proposing is perfectly fine provided you don't penny-pinch.

While it is true that most marinas do not accept liveaboards - at least officially, I don't think that any will complain about you sleeping aboard three or four nights per week. Living on a small, old boat throughout the British winter can be pretty depressing, but if you can afford something reasonably new and thirty-odd feet or longer and you can afford the bills to heat it properly and run a dehumidifier, then there is no reason why it should not be pretty comfortable. But don't underestimate the cost of keeping it warm and dry - boats are not well insulated and you can get through quite a lot of diesel and electricity keeping it habitable in January and February.

Don't listen to anyone suggesting any of the more arcane, traditional forms of heating - charcoal stoves, drip feed diesel or worse! They will not give you a uniform distribution of heat, they will build up the humidity in the boat and they will consume oxygen, requiring you to open hatches at a time when you really don't want to do that. You need a blown-air diesel heater from a reputable manufacturer and in very good condition. That will give you responsive heating that can be controlled to ensure that all parts of the boat are at the temperature you need. Make sure that it is adequately rated too - one of the entry-level diesel heaters with an output of 3kw is not going to keep a boat in the high thirty to low forty foot range adequately warm in Liverpool in mid-January!

You will need a good dehumidifier too - no question about that. For a boat in that size range, a Meaco dessicant dehumidifier should be fine - it is capable of pulling several litres of water per day out of your atmosphere. But it will be running most of the time in January and February - and drawing a couple of hundred watts, so the electricity bill will begin to rack up.

If you are choosing a boat for winter liveaboard, look for something with a good cockpit enclosure, or budget to add one. It's not rocket science - you are effectively proposing to spend the winter in a very small, three room flat. If that flat's front door opens directly onto the street, it is going to get cold and damp everytime someone goes in or out and your wet coat and any other wet clothes are going to hang in a corner dripping onto the floor and pushing up the humidity. Having a nice, dry cockpit enclosure where you can leave wet coats and muddy shoes and even hang out damp towels or other washing will make the experience infinitely more comfortable. You will also find that if you have got a decent output Webasto or Ebber diesel heater in the boat, the cockpit enclosure will get quite warm well into the late autumn and again from early spring if you leave the companionway open - giving you an extra room on your home!

My wife and I have plenty of experience of this - we have spent at least three days per week aboard our various boats all the year round for the last seven or eight years. These have all been well equipped, new boats ranging in size from 33 feet to 43 feet and we have never been cold or uncomfortable. But we have never skimped on heating or power consumption - and the running costs in the depths of winter can be high!
 
I spend a reasonable amount of time on board all year.

There is a signifcant difference between Summer and Winter.

Keeping a yacht dry and warm in the winter can be a challenge. Usually they are not well insulated.

Think hard about home comforts. You may not care about these, then all will be well.

However, if you do, you may be surprised that typical marina supplies are inadequate to run very much power simultaneously. Turn the hot water heater on and a toaster and you will probably trip the power supply.

You may well be surprised how much water you get through, so the tanks may need frequent refilling. You will also need to think about your own waste.

I think you can live very very comfortably on board. Size and equipment of course helps.

In an ideal world a 32 Amp supply is possible and sometimes available, you can run pretty much what you like, good calorifiers will provide all the hot water you need, and with a top end pump, the equivalent of a home shower is possible, satellite TV can be done, in fact you can live as comfortably as in any apartment BUT you need to think what you can do with and what not if its not to end in misery.
 
Just to be clear, neither drip-feed diesel nor charcoal stoves add condensation in the boat, as they have flues. A drip-feed diesel heater would actually be an excellent idea, as they are silent, need no elecricity at all, and burn paraffin, diesel or jet fuel, individually or mixed anyhow.
Blown air heaters are very expensive, noisy, complex devices which use plenty of electricity, are more fussy about fuel, and generally problematical.
(I'm directly contradicting post #22 here, but only the heating bits..not the rest of it..)
 
I've lived away from home 3 or 4 nights a week for months at a time at several points in my career.
I seriously considered using a yacht a couple of times, but it never happened.
First thing is, you don't spend much time in your 'accommodation' when working in this mode.
I tried to work a 4 day week, so usually it's more like 10 hours at the office than 8. Sometimes more.
Then I would do stuff in the evenings. I went to the gym or the swimming pool a lot. A few meals out with colleagues etc.
If you've got access to canteen food and showers at the gym/pool etc, it's possible to use your digs quite lightly, so there would be much less use of water, condensation etc. The hours of heating needed would be a fraction of 24/7 liveaboard.
 
lw395 said:
I've lived away from home 3 or 4 nights a week for months at a time at several points in my career.
I seriously considered using a yacht a couple of times, but it never happened.
...
The hours of heating needed would be a fraction of 24/7 liveaboard.
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That's not necessarily true - the key to comfortable accomodation on a boat in the middle of the winter in this country is to keep the boat warm and dry all the time. If we have been away for several days in December or January, it takes several hours to get the temperature up to genuinely comfortable levels and the last traces of damp out of the bedding.
 
maby said:
That's not necessarily true - the key to comfortable accomodation on a boat in the middle of the winter in this country is to keep the boat warm and dry all the time. If we have been away for several days in December or January, it takes several hours to get the temperature up to genuinely comfortable levels and the last traces of damp out of the bedding.
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If you're only sleeping somewhere, you can tolerate a lower temperature than if you're lounging.
The key is keeping it dry.
Even in winter, I prefer to have planty of vents open at night, even if that means a thicker duvet.
If you minimise cooking, showering, washing of clothes, there is much less drying out to be done.

A good dehumidifier running during the day and blown air heating will make a difference.
Heating the air rather than the whole structure of the boat.
A 2kW fan heater heat the air in the saloon of our 35ft boat quite handily. Because we are living actively we are happy with lower temperatures than at home, so long as it's dry. You're on a boat, you expect to wear a fleece or something in the evenings.
If you are getting up for work, you don't sit around noticing it's cold, up and out the door to coffee in the office.
Lots of offices have showers these days for the smelly cyclists. Breakfast at your desk is entirely common.
Personally, I'd look at turning the heating on remotely by phone.
 
Carcassi said:
Great, thanks for these helpful replies. A stupid question: is pumping sewage/ shower drain out acceptable in a marina on an estuary like the Mersey? I've done most of my sailing in the med where holding tanks and being well offshore is the norm.
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Definitely not. Liverpool Marina is locked with very little water circulation. Pumping out in the Mersey on the ebb would not be a problem.
Looking atvthe empty berths in Liverpool I don't they would take much persuading to allow a liveaboard.
 
LittleSister said:
But that's exactly the sort of thing you need to be doing much more to live aboard (full or part time), rather than occasional leisure use.
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The OP is talking about using a boat for staying overnight during the working week.
I was pointing out that this is significantly different to your typical 24/7 liveaboard.
For example one would probably take all the laundry home at weekends. Possibly along with some bedding to air.
It also means your boat does not stand out in the marina due to having laundry on the line whenever it's not raining.
The flip side is that you are not around during the day to open all the hatches if the weather's nice.
I've known contract workers live in canal boats, caravans, even unconverted white vans during the week.

I also know a few people who work away from home who've bought flats or houses for the purpose. You can get a couple of lodgers to pay the mortgage, the bonus being you don't have to spend the weekend with them. Not so easy in today's market in the South.

It can all make your tax a bit 'interesting' though.

BTW, somebody suggested you couldn't do this and go racing effectively. Sunstone anybody?
 
lw395 said:
... You're on a boat, you expect to wear a fleece or something in the evenings.

...
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Hmmm, you might, but I expect to be as comfortable on my boat as I am in our house! There's no need to slum it with modern boats and modern technology - provided you are prepared to pay the energy bills....
 
I lived on board for a couple of years. Had a 36' 1980s cruiser-racer with electricity though no hot water. It did have blown air heating, but I found it was alright to have a conventional electrical oil radiator, the heat built up quickly in the saloon where I lived, and then I took the radiator with me into the aft cabin for bed. The forecabin became very cold but that was fine as I didn't live there, just used it for storing some bits and bobs.
Showering was a pain as the water was cold, but was bearable. Boiling the kettle for shaving etc was fine.
I didn't live any more frugally than I do when at home, but still didn't find any problem when I decided I wanted to go for a sail. Clothes all lived in the wardrobe aft, and the food packed down into the usual places. Fridge was essential. Other than that the only thing I appreciated was a phone with enough data that I could make a wifi hotspot for the laptop and stream movies/music.
I would say go for it, it was a great experience and I loved the freedom and space. Going sailing on a whim was definitely doable, took maybe 10 minutes to make sure the washing up was done, unplug the electricity and cast off (if you're just heading out for an afternoon potter than how much are you expecting the boat to get thrown about??). Worst bit was the water tank running dry in the evening when it was snowing, and having to go out and hook up the hose...
 
I do what the OP is asking about. I have an old 28’ boat on a swinging ball, and have done almost 2 years of 3-4 nights a week.
I manage with minimal heating, no shore power, no refrigeration and a cooker. I shower at work, breakfast mainly on the boat and work late in the winter because it’s cold. I’ve dug snow out of my dinghy, gone for the odd sail and got through a large amount of podcasts, audiobooks and Netflix.
It is a cold, miserable impecunious existence and I’ve been told I’m one of the toughest people one of my colleagues has ever met. I’m not so sure but I get what he means. My existence is not for everyone. But as someone who enjoys their own company it works for me. But it’s not for everyone and no one should ever consider living aboard as an easy option. Condensation and cold are your constant enemies, as are the growing to do lists for the boat (no surprise there) and the toll on relationships from living away. I couldn’t do this without the support of my family, and you shouldn’t expect their endless patience.
 
As I said earlier we often live on board for two or three days over the winter. Even in the coldest weather a 3KW heater and / or our Ebber blown fan heater keep conditions toasty. I also run a dehumidifier overnight. The showers are piping hot. OK, its a 55 foot yacht so there is a lot of volume, but it is comfortable, toasty and cosy. As I also said earlier, if you want comfort you need to think abount adequate heating and adequate power to make it work (with an Ebber thats not a problem, just the expense of installation). And, yes you can definitely go sailing. The boat needs to be kpet organised and ready for sea, but we do often.

i accept I am lucky. I wouldnt want to live on a 30 foot yacht, but I know many do. I have all the conveniences of a small apartment, including hot water on tap, washing machine, tumble dryer, etc and it is very comfortable all year.

As I said earlier have no illusions, it is all about how much comfort discomfort you are willing to accept and there are some very good pointers on here what is needed to make it as comfortable as possible.
 
ip485 said:
As I said earlier we often live on board for two or three days over the winter. Even in the coldest weather a 3KW heater and / or our Ebber blown fan heater keep conditions toasty. I also run a dehumidifier overnight. The showers are piping hot. OK, its a 55 foot yacht so there is a lot of volume, but it is comfortable, toasty and cosy. As I also said earlier, if you want comfort you need to think abount adequate heating and adequate power to make it work (with an Ebber thats not a problem, just the expense of installation). And, yes you can definitely go sailing. The boat needs to be kpet organised and ready for sea, but we do often.

i accept I am lucky. I wouldnt want to live on a 30 foot yacht, but I know many do. I have all the conveniences of a small apartment, including hot water on tap, washing machine, tumble dryer, etc and it is very comfortable all year.

As I said earlier have no illusions, it is all about how much comfort discomfort you are willing to accept and there are some very good pointers on here what is needed to make it as comfortable as possible.
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Look up tea light heater..

You are doing the right thing, or at least what I would do.

Kind Regards

Skip.
 
I use the boat all year often staying 3 nights in the winter.

I agree with most that has been said. I won’t repeat it. I would add:

I run the dehumidifier 24/7 in winter. That way I leave the beds made up and clothes in the boat so I can use it spontaneously.

It costs about £30 a month in electricity to run. Marinas are not allowed to mark up electricity costs.

Get a desiccant dehumidifier. This is important. They are more expensive to buy and run but they give out some background heat and work in low temperatures - condenser ones don’t. They are quiet, condenser ones make a racket. And finally they don’t catch fire which far too many condenser ones do.

Insulate the ducting on the blown air heating. Makes a huge difference to getting the heat to the ends of the boat. I have a 5kW one and it is not quite enough on the coldest days. I top it up with a oil radiators. My 40ft mobo has a lot of space and a lot of glass though. If I was re fitting the heating I’d fit two 3kw ones. That would give extra heat with both on, and it would mean a jumper day rather than an arctic suit day if one packs up.

Keep rock salt on board. When it freezes overnight it can help you get onto the pontoon safely.

I don’t have gas onboard. On my old boat I did and you need propane not butane in winter if you do. I much prefer electric cooking BTW.

LED lighting. Mix warm white in the seating areas with cool over the galley and in the heads. Bright yet cosy, not gloomy.

Get a battery charger that can be left on 24/7 if you don’t have one.

Keep your lifejackets in the car or take it to the pub and wear it down the pontoon. If like me you won’t be disciplined about this buy a jacket with a built in buoyancy aid. Better than nothing.

If there isn’t a ladder near your boat (really near) rig one from the boat if your ladder can’t be deployed from the water (mine can). If you fall in in the dark in winter you will probably die even with a lifejacket on if you don’t have a ladder.

Oh and I forget to say I love staying on the boat in winter. Go for it!
 
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I had a Jag25 in Liverpool marina for a couple of years. Facilities are just OK. Toilets/showers could do with an upgrade but they are manageable. Bar and restaurannt are quite good and food is reasonably priced and they also have Sky Sports. Also, lots of narrow boats in Liverpool Marina, which may be wirth cosidering.
Sailing out of the marina is restricted to about 2 hours each side of HW but when you are coming back in, you need to be no more than half an hour after HW or you'll be dealing with a minimum 3 knot flow past the entrance lock. So, in truth, you're lucky to get a 2 hour sail even less on neaps!
 
Great thread and give food for thought.

We are getting a house built slightly inland from Nazare, Portugal. We can afford to start it but will need to sell our 3 bed Nazare apartment to complete the build.

We intend to live on our 43' Jeanneau Deck Saloon for probably some 9months while new build is complete.

Boat is in Nazare Marina with electricity.

Temp in winter gets as low as 6 degC along Silver Coast, Portugal. But can be as high as 28-30 deg in Summer (atlantic breeze keeps temps reasonable).

Anyone any experience of being a livaboard in this temp range as had not considered any problems we might encounter (except getting SWMBOs clothing wardrobe on board!!
 
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