useless marine surveyors

I assume your loss is the price of rectifying the loose keel. If this is just the cost of you tightening up a few bolts and a bit of mastic then I'd put it down to experience.
If a boatyard is involved then perhaps have a look at your boat insurance - if it includes legal cover then maybe give them a call and have a chat about it.
Check to see if your surveyor is in the YDSA - it should say on his paperwork - if not then get a mate to call on pretext of doing a survey on a different boat and ask of his credentials then. If he is in the YDSA then you can approach them and ask about liability.
Ultimately though, if significant sums are involved then it may pay you to talk to a solicitor.
 
keelbolts9 said:
Is the YDSA a regulatory body or simply a membership association? Can the YDSA 'strike off' the incompetent marine surveyor who failed to spot the loose keel on the boat in Cardiff I subsequently purchased, or would they not be interested in professional standards? The surveyor in question denies any responsibility.
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Why don't you give the YBDSA a call and ask them?

They will tell you if your surveyor is a member and at what level. If he is not then it appears you are on your own.

I contacted them over a Broker issue a few years ago. Even though the broker was a member they advised me to sue him! I do not believe they hold any sort of protection to their members if they are found to be negligent.
 
keelbolts9 said:
Is the YDSA a regulatory body or simply a membership association? Can the YDSA 'strike off' the incompetent marine surveyor who failed to spot the loose keel on the boat in Cardiff I subsequently purchased, or would they not be interested in professional standards? The surveyor in question denies any responsibility.
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Your first step is to determine what your loss is and whether it could have been prevented if the surveyor had found the fault. This may involve engaging another surveyor to advise you, but it may be possible to use a quote from a repair shop.

You will have to show that you relied on his advice in a professional capacity. Membership of a professional body at this point is irrelevant. If he is setting himself up as a professional expert he is personally liable for his mistakes. Most professionals insure themselves against such mistakes, but that does not affect his personal liability, it just means you don't have to fight him but his insurance company.

The YDSA insist their members have insurance as everybody can make mistakes. And, yes they can withdraw his membership if he persistently breaks the code of conduct.

He cannot just ignore you. If you have suffered a financial loss because of his mistake then sue him. It is very straightforward for smallish amounts. See www.moneyclaim.gov.uk for the process. Receiving a claim through the court will wake him up. He may of course choose to defend it in which case you will have to present your own case or hire a solicitor. Even if you win, there is no guarantee that you will get your money (for example if he declares himself bankrupt), but at least you will have established a legal claim.

All this is much better than sitting whinging, but only worth pursuing if you really have suffered a financial loss.

BTW the website will give you lots of advice on how you might be able to resolve disputes without going to court. You will need to show that you have explored all these, one of which will be arbitration through a professional body before resorting to the court.

Just to give you an idea, I have just filed a claim against easyjet, but I can demonstrate that I have used their claims procedure, provide the information they asked for and given them ample time to respond. No response so 30 minutes on line and the claim is filed.

Hope this helps
 
It would be helpful if the OP, keelbolts9, answered the following questions.

1. Did OP engage the surveyor's services directly?

2. What were the written terms of engagement?

3. What did the OP instruct the surveyor to do?

4. What type of boat was being advised on?

5. Was the boat being purchased by the OP?

6. Where and when did these events take place?

Without answers to these questions we will be making assumptions about the circumstances that may be invalid.
 
Useless marine surveyor in Cardiff

Tranoma, Thank you very much for your reply. Very helpful and really useful. Much appreciated.
 
keelbolts9 said:
Tranoma, Thank you very much for your reply. Very helpful and really useful. Much appreciated.
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Thanks.

If you do go down this route, remember that you have to prepare a good case that your surveyor was negligent and that you had a loss. You start at a disadvantage because he is the "expert" and you are challenging his expertise. The test (which the court will use if it gets that far) is one of "reasonableness" - is it reasonable to expect a competent surveyor to spot this fault. It is unlikely to be black and white because each case is specific and there is inevitably judgement involved based on the evidence presented. This is why you might need further professional advice.

The first step is to collect your evidence and then decide if it is worth pursuing. Present him with the evidence and your claim, which he will pass onto his insurer (if he has one). Copy the YDSA or any other professional body if he is a member, but remember they have no direct responsibilty for his actions, but are there to help resolve disputes. Be prepared for the long haul - he is just as entitled to challenge your account as you are his.

I have been involved with two cases of surveyor negligence. In the first case with my own boat, we resolved it amicably because the cost of repairs was relatively small - he paid for the materials and helped me in the repairs. The second was where the purchaser discovered the boat was a basket case even though the surveyor's report was glowing. I inspected the boat with a view to buying it "as is" and it was obvious from 25 yards away that there were botched repairs. The owner had a detailed survey from a well respected surveyor to support his claim against the (uninsured) original surveyor. Despite the detail, I still found unreported faults, probably because I know a lot about the design of boat, having owned a similar boat from the same designer and builder for 30 years. This case had already been going on for over a year, even though, as things go it was an "open and shut" case.

Feel free to PM me if you need any further "friendly" advice.
 
dodgy yacht surveyors

Thank you all of you for your advice. I now have a way forward and will be proceeding. One things for sure I have learnt from all this is to give surveyors in Cardiff a very wide berth.
 
I instructed a ‘surveyor’ last year who, at the eleventh hour (lift out booked etc,) subsequently decided to refuse the job because I would not let him see the previous Surveyors’ report (now retired.) Presumably he was not confident of his own ability. My view was that the Survey should be able to stand alone.
 
When my previous boat was surveyed, in Cardiff, for the people who eventually bought it, he missed some of the things that I had already told them. I was in the yard while he was doing the survey which he stopped after a short while, due to a phonecall. He said to the people who paid him that he came back later but that was a lie, I never left and slept onboard that night. I can't remember his name but would not touch him with a disinfected bargepole!
I'm sure there are some good surveyors in Cardiff.
Allan
 
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Ah the times we live in!!!!!!!
The last survey I got was a masterpiece of "CUT and PASTE" and nearly every item was qualified with a phrase like..."and should be inspected by a specialist...". Several serious defects were overlooked and several trivial points were seized on because they were easy to write about. I believe that you need ZERO QUALIFICATIONS to set up as a Marine Surveyor but presumably you need some level of qualification to join the Institute or Association.
I know there are some excellent surveyors out there but there are also a lot of bandits as this thread confirms !!!!
 
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Marine Surveyors

In my experience/opinion there are some very good and some very bad surveyors. I can set up as a surveyor today if I want to. No experience or qualification needed. There are various "professional" bodies I can join to get an acronym on the letterhead, some better than others. IIRC the YBDSA was set up by a group of responsible surveyors/brokers/designers to try to improve standards. There are different levels of membership for surveyors depending on their experience and qualifications and these are worth looking at when engaging someone. There is also a disciplinary body that looks into complaints with the power to sanction poor quality and potentially throw someone out of the organisation. A friend of mine sits on that panel and takes the task very seriously as comments like some of those above affect his own business but you should remember their power is limited because membership is only voluntary.
I don't think any surveyor is really qualified to comment properly on every aspect of a boat and its equipment - the field is just too wide - but the good ones will discuss their own strengths and weaknesses before committing to a job. Unfortunately the bad ones have the gift of the gab, claim to know everything, and then fill their report with qualifications about getting an expert in!
I think the bottom line is "buyer beware" but it makes sense to ask other people for their experiences in a particular area and about types of boat before committing to a surveyor just because he/she tells you how good he is.
 
Was inspecting a pretty nice old steel boat with a copy of a month old survey that the owner who was with me provided when I found that the mast was cracked for about 1/3 of its circumference at the winch mounts [ propably weld related. but what do I know; not a surveyor.]

Fairly obvious crack at a high risk spot. Spi pole looked well used and the boat came with a spi and cruising assy spi.
 
beware marine surveyors in Cardiff

Well, it now turns out that this marine surveyor who failed to spot a loose keel on the boat I subsequently purchased has failed to provide evidence of professional indemnity insurance or any insurance for that matter. Furthermore he states it is not his responsibility to check the condition of any boat's keel whilst it is in slings because he believes a boat in slings is unsafe and that is a health and safety issue. Seems to me that is one yacht surveyor to be avoided in future.
 
keelbolts9 said:
Well, it now turns out that this marine surveyor who failed to spot a loose keel on the boat I subsequently purchased has failed to provide evidence of professional indemnity insurance or any insurance for that matter. Furthermore he states it is not his responsibility to check the condition of any boat's keel whilst it is in slings because he believes a boat in slings is unsafe and that is a health and safety issue. Seems to me that is one yacht surveyor to be avoided in future.
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If your financial loss is significant and worth the fight, then spend a small sum on a proper surveyor for a report that effectively says the previous one should have spotted it. Make sure you have the estimates or the actual bill for the repairs and a report from the repairer. Go onto the moneyclaim website and follow their recommendation for notifying him that you intend to make a claim. Present him with your evidence and give him 14 days to respond. If he does not, file the claim and he will get a summons. He may contest it and then the onus is on him to convince the court he has acted professionally. Make sure you have explored all avenues such as approaching professional bodies to arbitrate and given him every opportunity to settle.

Remember all the time he is personally liable if he sets himself out as a "professional". Even if he does not have insurance you can get (if your argument is strong enough) a judgement against him which will make life difficult for him as it goes straight on his credit record. You also have the option of sending in the bailiffs.

Good luck
 
keelbolts9 said:
What is the point of marine surveyors if they fail to spot a major fault such as a loose keel? My recent experience in Cardiff produced the response from the surveyor that he could not be held responsible for having missed it! Has anyone else had a similar experience?
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Before deciding on Guapa we were set on another boat.

Balsa core hull - recent osmosis treatment (DIY) - looking at the hull it was clear to the naked eye that there was a difference in hull thickness above and below the waterline.

I particularly asked the surveyor for detailed feedback regarding that issue.

Survey report on the issue:

Even though there is a difference in hull thickness of about 3mm below the waterline, the hull probably remains adequately strong.
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Probably? Adequate for what?

In plain English the line should read: She should float, but don't hold me to it.

We walked - broker couldn't see why.
 
Did a major refit on a yacht which the surveyor told the owner was a bit tatty and needed a new coach roof, owner took his word on it until he and his girlfriend took it out sailing one day and noticed water flowing into the boat at speed through the forepeak. New surveyor and my boss looked at it when hauled out and couldnt work out how the ruddy boat hadnt sunk an winter refit turned into an expenisve 8 month mamouth restoration, and it was the owners 1st wooden boat think he decided to stick to fiberglass after that.
 
Guapa said:
Survey report on the issue:

Even though there is a difference in hull thickness of about 3mm below the waterline, the hull probably remains adequately strong.
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Probably? Adequate for what?
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With respect, that's all any surveyor could possibly have said without performing the hull strength calculations over again. And they would not have been in a position to know what parts of the layup remained, nor how much margin existed in the original design.

Istm your mistake was going ahead with a survey when you saw the hull thickness issue beforehand - I personally would have walked before incurring further expense.

Boo2
 
Boo2 said:
With respect, that's all any surveyor could possibly have said without performing the hull strength calculations over again. And they would not have been in a position to know what parts of the layup remained, nor how much margin existed in the original design.

Istm your mistake was going ahead with a survey when you saw the hull thickness issue beforehand - I personally would have walked before incurring further expense.

Boo2
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Sorry have to disagee on the hull strengh and lay up issue ,any good surveyor should find out and its not that hard if they know where to look and ask the right people. I use the same surveyor every time with no issues at all.One of the boats I purchased I asked about the frames around the keel ,he came back with all the dimensions and lay up . It was an old IOR boat. As to wood same again no problems. In my experience owning boats you really do get what you pay for when it comes to surveyors.
 
Crabman said:
Sorry have to disagee on the hull strengh and lay up issue ,any good surveyor should find out and its not that hard if they know where to look and ask the right people.
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How could they know for certain whether a 3mm reduction in hull thickness leaves a boat seaworthy without doing the calculations ?

Boo2
 
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