Urgent Centaur Advice please

DennisF

DennisF

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Hi all,

I'm going to view a 1979 Centaur on Saturday. A friend went to have a quick look today, and the boat seems to be in fair condition overall. However, the boat is on a mud berth, so I told my friend about the infamous Centaur keel splay problem and he had a look at the keel bolts. These two pics show a crack he found, along with some keel bolts that seem to have been reseated:

Crack 1.jpgCrack 2.jpg

The boat has mud and barnacles on the keel, so external inspection of the keel is difficult at present. My rather urgent question to the learned panel is whether this crack is likely to be related to keel splay and whether I should just walk away without the bother of an offer or a survey, or could it be due to anything else. Essentially, would you walk away from a boat with this crack? Help!!
 
What does the owner say?
if its a really good buy get a surveyor to look - then if its ok get him to carry on with the survey.
I have to confess I would probably walk away....
Good luck
 
What does the owner say?
if its a really good buy get a surveyor to look - then if its ok get him to carry on with the survey.
I have to confess I would probably walk away....
Good luck
 
it is being viewed through a broker, so owner has not said anything as yet. The issue was not mentioned by the broker to my friend.
 
DennisF said:
Hi all,

I'm going to view a 1979 Centaur on Saturday. A friend went to have a quick look today, and the boat seems to be in fair condition overall. However, the boat is on a mud berth, so I told my friend about the infamous Centaur keel splay problem and he had a look at the keel bolts. These two pics show a crack he found, along with some keel bolts that seem to have been reseated:

View attachment 40345View attachment 40346

The boat has mud and barnacles on the keel, so external inspection of the keel is difficult at present. My rather urgent question to the learned panel is whether this crack is likely to be related to keel splay and whether I should just walk away without the bother of an offer or a survey, or could it be due to anything else. Essentially, would you walk away from a boat with this crack? Help!!
Click to expand...

It is hard to say from those photos but photo 2 suggests that the keel stubs have been reinforced.

I would say the crack is due to a hefty impact injury. Possibly a submerged object.

Having said that I'm not sure why it's not leaking like a sieve with the apparent size of the crack.

Surveyor - you must - or, I think, you'll regret it.

Plenty more Centaurs in the sea.

Go with caution.
 
The reseated keels are fine, but I also have to say that the crack would worry me a great deal. Are there any signs that the hull has been re-inforced or does it all look fairly standard ?.
 
CPD said:
The reseated keels are fine, but I also have to say that the crack would worry me a great deal. Are there any signs that the hull has been re-inforced or does it all look fairly standard ?.
Click to expand...

It all looks fairly standard according to my friend. The boat isn't in regular use, but not much water around the keel bolts as you can see. I'm tempted to go and have a look, but am struggling to know whether it is even worth getting a survey. Any further opinions?
 
It looks to me like a crack in the gelcoat ..... there are no rough edges that would be expected if it was a laminate crack.

Even if it was a laminate crack it shouldn't be a costly repair surely? I'm rather out of touch with UK repairer's charges ..... and also you could get the owner to pay.

Get a surveyor to check it out ..... but if this is the only problem, don't get scared off by a repair that you may no even have to pay for.
 
TradewindSailor said:
It looks to me like a crack in the gelcoat ..... there are no rough edges that would be expected if it was a laminate crack.

Even if it was a laminate crack it shouldn't be a costly repair surely? I'm rather out of touch with UK repairer's charges ..... and also you could get the owner to pay.

Get a surveyor to check it out ..... but if this is the only problem, don't get scared off by a repair that you may no even have to pay for.
Click to expand...

See, that's what you get for asking for advice on the forum, different answers from different people! Like everyone else who asks for advice you are going to have to make up your own mind! Good luck!
 
DennisF said:
Hi all,

I'm going to view a 1979 Centaur on Saturday. A friend went to have a quick look today, and the boat seems to be in fair condition overall. However, the boat is on a mud berth, so I told my friend about the infamous Centaur keel splay problem and he had a look at the keel bolts. These two pics show a crack he found, along with some keel bolts that seem to have been reseated:


The boat has mud and barnacles on the keel, so external inspection of the keel is difficult at present. My rather urgent question to the learned panel is whether this crack is likely to be related to keel splay and whether I should just walk away without the bother of an offer or a survey, or could it be due to anything else. Essentially, would you walk away from a boat with this crack? Help!!
Click to expand...

This appears to relate to the deflecting keel trying to bend the keel stubs and due to inadequate stiffening there has been movement which was resisted by the stiff locker floor resulting in this failure.

I expect there is much info on the Westerly Owners Yahoo group advising how to correctly deal with the crack and add sufficient additional stiffening.

If the boat is fine apart from this then it need not be a deal breaker. Any good surveyor will give a fair assessment and probable cost of repairs.
 
TradewindSailor said:
It looks to me like a crack in the gelcoat ..... there are no rough edges that would be expected if it was a laminate crack.

Even if it was a laminate crack it shouldn't be a costly repair surely? I'm rather out of touch with UK repairer's charges ..... and also you could get the owner to pay.

Get a surveyor to check it out ..... but if this is the only problem, don't get scared off by a repair that you may no even have to pay for.
Click to expand...

I don't think there is any gelcoat in the bilges - its smoothish fibreglass. That being said it doesn't look like a 'structural crack' - just a bit of a crack, what else can you say?

Have a go at it with a scraper yourself - bet you find it's superficial.

I have a son who used to play football, now he plays Rugby Union. The thing I love most is I don't have to put up with parents with nasty, sneery attitudes towards the kids who are not very good at the game their 'babies' play. Find yourself in a sailing forum - there's the sneery attitude, only this time it's towards cheeper boats. This is probably a response to other posts rather than this one, so, just saying.
 
DennisF said:
Hi all,

I'm going to view a 1979 Centaur on Saturday. A friend went to have a quick look today, and the boat seems to be in fair condition overall. However, the boat is on a mud berth, so I told my friend about the infamous Centaur keel splay problem and he had a look at the keel bolts. These two pics show a crack he found, along with some keel bolts that seem to have been reseated:



The boat has mud and barnacles on the keel, so external inspection of the keel is difficult at present. My rather urgent question to the learned panel is whether this crack is likely to be related to keel splay and whether I should just walk away without the bother of an offer or a survey, or could it be due to anything else. Essentially, would you walk away from a boat with this crack? Help!!
Click to expand...

You need to be looking for cracks running length wise in the grp in the the keel stubs. Or signs that the keel stubs have been reinforced.

I dont know what to make of the transverse crack

As Bilge diver says there is a lot info on reinforcing the keel stubs on the WOA Yahoo discussion group. Look in the photos section.

You dont have to be a member of the WOA but you do have to be registered with Yahoo.

Dunno if the link will work but the info is here: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Westerly-Owners/photos/albums/1237689016
 
Last edited:
VicS said:
You need to be looking for cracks running length wise in the grp in the the keel stubs. Or signs that the keel stubs have been reinforced.

I dont know what to make of the transverse crack
Click to expand...

I thought that the splayed keels damage was fore and aft too. I don't know what to make of that transverse crack.

It all looks dry enough for now. See if you can find out some history as the keels look to have been rebedded or possibly bodged with sealant just put on the inside to stop a leak.

If the boat is the right price it could be worth a punt.
 
I agree with VicS' diagnosis. If I was to deflect the keels from side to side, as if there was a keel splay activity, I would expect cracks to form longitudinally, particularly along the lands between the keel bolts. In the photos the crack is transverse to that line, which suggests it is due to something else. It could be that the keel will need to be removed to assess the extent of the damage, which should be taken into account when negotiating a price.
 
It obviously concerns you so walk away as it will constantly be at the back of your mind, as has been said there are plenty more Centaurs in the sea unless of course it is stinking cheap even then I would still walk
 
Having mended a few of these i will make the following comments, from those photos the transverse webs look like the originals, just a bit of 10mm ply lightly glassed over with maybe 6oz of chopped strand mat tops, therefore she hasnt been reinforced properly. The access depending on layout is poor & i have seen three supposedly reinforced Centaurs that have been "reinforced professionally", All had just had glass slapped into the keel stubs without any real attempt to grind back the glass to clean laminate. One had just had fibreglass slapped on over old danboline & bilge filth. Thats really going to stick well isnt it!
Cracking anywhere round the interior moulding tabbing or transverse webs is a sign the keels are on the move. Often the bolts are loose with one boat i did only being done up hand tight, again reinforced profesionally.To do the job properly you have to cut out part of the interior moulding both sides to gain access so decent web frames can be glassed in.You are looking at 4 to 5k to do a proper job. It had best be cheap to start with!
 
Thanks for all the responses so far. The consensus seems to be it is not keel splay, but there are concerns as to what has caused the crack. I'll probably have a look on Saturday, as the boat has quite a few good features including a recent engine, but any offer would have to include reduction by the estimated cost of repair given by a surveyor.
 
With keith66's advice in mind, I would take a powerful torch, a good retractable blade knife and some stiff thin screwdrivers and indeed poke into the crack and even lever gently to see what is what..It may just be additional glass slapped onto the danboline.. Of course if the crack runs 'into' the hull moulding ( as opposed to along the surface joint) then dont poke thru to the mud!

You can learn a lot by lifting the boat out in slings, winding a rope around the two keels at the base, getting someone to apply a tournique whilst observing the behaviour of the crack and associated keel mouldings from inside. GRP is pretty flexible stuff, the trick is to know whether the hull is flexing within its elastic limint, if you like, or whether it has started to delaminateand suffer loss of stiffness and strength from the known weakness in the design..
best luck,,

( the boat may be due a haul out anyway, perhaps offer a small bit of the haul out cost for survey only?)
 
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