Update Greek Port Police Procedures

I'd take it as I have done anything to do with Greece (of which I am not completely naive - I have Greek relatives), and that is with a pinch of salt, and often best mixed with a large Ouzo...

My experience of the Greeks is that they love their bureaucracy, but they love people that love their country even more.... and that can be used to great effect /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Jim.....

How can you call the random and arbitrary application of rules and procedures a "system"?

It is self contradictory.

Steve cronin
 
They are ....

... a bunch of ill educated, ignorant opportunist thieves who are just in the job for the kudos and the pension (But we mustn't SAY that MUST we?)

Off to Gouvia on Friday. MY DEKKY THINGIE hasn't been stamped for years and do I CARE?


BTW, the bloke who takes your papers at Zakynthos is an employee of the yacht club.

Why VOLUNTARILY go to the office. I avoid them like the plague. Notice that in Gaios, once Lucretia Borgia has been around for her money (sliding scale depending on where your boat is registered and tonight to tomorrow morning is TWO days in her reckoning) you could set the PP office on fire for all they care.

Lets DO this "EUROPE" thing or not do it. One way or the other and ALL of us. Don't give me that "Poor Nations needing our money to be re-distributed to them" crap. Greece has some very wealthy citizens.

FWIW, my yardstick is:- If a country can afford for it's head of state to travel in a limousine and wear a hand made suit, it doesn't need any monetary assistance from us.

Steve Cronin
 
\"Confiscate\" - \"impound\"...

...there surely is the answer. The Greek officials you met in each place used different Greek-English/ English-Greek phrasebooks!

It's all down to accurate translation of rules, laws and statements and everyone actually talking about the same issues in the same terms. Then there's also the culture thing of course.

How does anyone expect this "European Union" thing to work?

Steve Cronin
 
It\'s all for our own benefit after all! (But delightfully ambiguous):-

Movement between Ports
Sailing of privately owned craft under foreign flag in Greek waters is free provided that all legal prerequisites are satisfied if it meant free passage. ("free" here refers to monetary cost of course otherwise it would contradict "all legal prerequisites are satisfied")

No passport control is undertaken at domestic ports provided that the status of the passengers or the crew of the craft remains unchanged. (so how is this verified then?)


For sailing between Greek ports the following conditions must be met:

Before leaving the first port of call or any other Greek port, the skipper should deposit with the relevant port authorities a list of passengers, a copy of which he carries with the other ship's documents during the trip. (since there is no compulsion to present the crew at any control, how is this verified?)

The first port of call is the Greek port from which the trip starts or which the craft approaches first if the trip starts abroad.

Each time the craft must record arrival and departure. This is the only way in which a party may prove its presence in case it has suffered damage in a particular spot. Arrival and departure can prove the mileage of the craft. (How does it do that?)

All documents pertaining to the craft must be valid and be presented upon demand to port authorities. (are these as required by Greek Law, European Law or the flag country)

The Transit Log must be on board while the craft is sailing Greek waters and must be at the disposal of Port and Customs Authorities, while it must be updated for any changes. (Isn't the "Transit Log" the one that there was so much publicity about it's having been done away with?)
The person in whose name the Transit Log was issued or any other authorised party must be on board. (Who does the "authorising")
Each time the craft enters a port, the Bulletin of Sailing for pleasure craft must be stamped by the relevant port authorities. The same applies each time a craft sails away from a port. (AH! Now here is a new document, a "Bulletin of Sailing". Is that a DEKRA?)
Violations of the above-mentioned provisions are punishable with fines. A craft could be phohibited to sail away until such fines are paid. ("Could be" or WILL be?)

So you see, it's a combination of a GC66 and a means of establishing liability in the event of an accident. Furthermore it determines that you are there and without it you aren't even if the Head Patriarch of the Greek Orthodox Church himself says you are.

Steve Cronin
 
Re: It\'s all for our own benefit after all! (But delightfully ambiguous):-

Beautiful picking apart of nonsense rules.

This sort of stuff has to be stopped within the EU. We deserve better than this. The free movement within the EU is not only one of the foundations of the Union; it is also a basic human right to move around without harassment by officials.
 
Re: It\'s all for our own benefit after all! (But delightfully ambiguous):-

Steve,

As I think you know, the answers to most of your questions are clear in the Greek original texts of their maritime law, which, for commercial vesssels, is not that widely different from the maritime law in many other EU countries.

The document you reasonably mock is a translation (by a non-English speaker) of brief guidance notes prepared for leisure boats. Those Greek guidance notes (I'm guessing here) were prepared by someone who wasn't competent enough to produce something unambiguous. Your point, maybe, in an earlier post about education?

The real point is that Greece operates within it's own language, and it's own culture, which is different from the UK liberal culture. We're visitors. It's that culture difference which I find very interesting - others don't. Fine. They don't have to visit.

Nor do the Greeks have to change thier culture to match ours - it would, after all, be just as valid for them to ask us to change our culture to match theirs.

Off subject a bit, but personally, I find Greece the least threatening country in Europe to cruise in, or live in, and I've tried quite a few. Personal crime levels are very low. I've never bothered to lock my boat, and outside cities, houses are left unlocked, shop inventories are left outside under canvas wraps . . . parcels left in heaps at bus stops to be collected without signatures or security.

They've got something right . . .
 
Re: It\'s all for our own benefit after all! (But delightfully ambiguous):-

Jim, I don't think you are getting the point here. The rules quoted by Steve is a very accurate description of how the Greek PP interprets and applies the rules in daily life. I don't think there is any 'translation issue' here. It is a random projection of authority based on unclear rules.

They really are seriously thinking you have to get a rubber stamp in and out of EVERY port EVERY day. I know you have stated that 'the PP knows that this is nonsense and will not insist on it'. I am very sorry, but in my experience there is a very small minority of PP's that are embarrassed. The majority will try to apply the rules as well as they can (as you would expect from any law enforcement officer anywhere in the world). They will not be malicious though, but give you a long lecture on how important it is to follow these rules. You will eat a lot of humble pie and promise that 'next time...' you will get your stamps. Lastly, you have the vicious zealot PP that seriously believes that these rubber stamps are the only thing that stands between an independent Greece and the unwashed hordes from the east. This will be the PP that will threaten to confiscate your yacht for a lack of stamps. They are thankfully also in a small minority, but I have met more of this type than the understanding version.

This is a seriously flawed way to deal with maritime control issues. And it really gets in the way of us enjoying a cruise in Greece, really a pity....
 
Re: It\'s all for our own benefit after all! (But delightfully ambiguous):-

Comment on your second point:

[ QUOTE ]
The real point is that Greece operates within it's own language, and it's own culture, which is different from the UK liberal culture. We're visitors.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well sorry, but that is serious bullshit. Greece has elected to join the EU and should therefore follow the rules of the EU; among them are the free movement of people and respect for human rights.

If Greek culture feels that it is not compliant with these basic principles, they should not have joined the union.

Don't give us this crap that 'Greece is different' and we should therefore accept any bullshit. If you join a civilised group; don't be surprised that you have to adhere to civilised rules.
 
Re: It\'s all for our own benefit after all! (But delightfully ambiguous):-

Lady Jesiie,

I can now see the truth. I think that you are absolutely right and I suggest that you:

1. Appeal at the European Court for violation of your human rights and for being systematically tortured by having to stamp your papers.

2. Ask for help from your "cousins" and bomb Greece until civilization is fully achieved.

3. In the meantime stick to your exemplary second home country where not having to stamp is proof of true civilization.


P.S. Speaking of complying with standards and countrie's differences, how many square inches in a square acre?
 
Re: It\'s all for our own benefit after all! (But delightfully ambiguous):-

[ QUOTE ]
Jim, I don't think you are getting the point here. The rules quoted by Steve is a very accurate description of how the Greek PP interprets and applies the rules in daily life.

[/ QUOTE ] Whilst, during the previous two years, each of Steve's quotes may have been applied to one or two vessels, once or twice in a year, they are not the norm.

I understand that you have been sailing freely around Greece this year, with no hindrance to your movement, but some paperwork which you dislike. Your argument, that one or two events among those listed by Steve prove that the whole system prevents the free movement of citizens of Europe around the country, and therfore breaks EU law, is a farce.

At this level of argument I think the inability of a minor to enter a place where alcohol is consumed, unless it has a child-sized urinal, also prevents the free movement of citizens. Now that's the UK approach . . . an example of over regulation, over policed. Something most of the rest of the EU find quite bizarre . . . but it's part of our culture, it's how we work.

Foolish rules are embedded in every different coutries culture. They're not necessarily anything to do with human rights or freedom of movement.

Although you pooh-poohed the idea earlier in this thread, the culture of creating law, and how it is policed, is very different between UK and other liberal countries, compared to those which inherited their systems from the Napoleonic code, of which Greece is a moderately extreme example.

So, yes, I think I have got the point.
 
Re: It\'s all for our own benefit after all! (But delightfully ambiguous):-

Jim, I apologise for the very rude tone of that response. It was uncalled for.

I had just come back from visiting two other nice liveaboards anchored in this bay. We spent most of the evening exchanging Greek PP stories and I had become more angry about this nonsense than ever. I used you to blow off steam. Again, my apologies.

This does not change what I feel about the other points I tried to make in my input; the Greek yacht control procedures just got to stop. It is a violation of the fundamental rules of the EU and it is making it very uncomfortable to cruise in Greece.
 
Re: It\'s all for our own benefit after all! (But delightfully ambiguous):-

I think that those who get all steamed up about bureaucracy in Greece should just stay away, or at least stay away from those ports where there are issues. It will make more room for those who enjoy the pleasures of life here and are prepared to have a relaxed attitude towards the difference in culture.

The EU is made up of lots of different countries all with their own traditions, cultures, strengths and weaknesses.

Greece is not the UK and will never operate like the UK. Some of the problem behaviours you encounter (and there are lots - you should try operating a business here!) will hopefully change slowly but nothing you can do will make it change any faster so getting worked up will only raise your blood pressure - it won't make a jot of difference to local practice.
 
Re: It\'s all for our own benefit after all! (But delightfully ambiguous):-

Hi Jim,

Thank you for your comments. I found your description of cultures and the Napoleonic Law stuff right on the nail. And no, human rights doesn't come into it.

I comfirm that in the Ionion this year the authorities are operating in a practical way. Easy check in, suggest (not even tell) you get the doc stamped once per month. The port police do not make the rules and, despite being required to operate in one way are being quite reasonable in suggesting a practical way to operate.

Like most, I HATE bureaucracy and do not react well to it. However if I react badly I do realise that is MY problem. The civilised approach works well!

The point about appreciating someone's country (mentioned by another poster) and also appreciating their having you as a visitor and showing you are happy to be there certainly goes down well.

I just can't agree with the approach of some on here and I am not surprised they are having bad experiences if the tone of their posts reflects their approach with officials.

I, also, get frustrated with the lack of compliance with EU law on entering harbours in some countries. However I have little time for the attitude of the EU to law (definition of a banana etc) which seems to be based upon regulating wherever you can rather than as little as is reasonably possible. I therefore try not to get excited when the one of the few laws I have got time for is not complied with by officials. I am just grateful that in most EU countries most of the silly stuff is ignored in practice.

By the way Jim, we met briefly in Ay Eufimia but at that stage I had not checked in but referred you to a chap on a cat who had. I subsequently found my experience was similar to his ie basically positive.

Cheers,

Bob
 
As of this summer, yachts were still logged into Portuguese ports by the same triummvirate, an absurd process which, apart from being contrary to my notion of EU law, achives nothing but job creation for an assortment of uniforms (most of whom are fairly pleasant, some not). What else it's intended to achieve I don't know, since away from designated harbours there's no such fuss (national park 'nature police' excepted). Illegal immigrants, smugglers and terrorists would, of course, report to a convenient port and fill in the forms honestly. Lovely country, lovely people, but their beaurocracy is bonkers.
 
Thanks for that macd, it confirms another report I'd received.

It's interesting to note that both Greece and Portugal were racked by struggles for power between the military and others right up to the mid 1970's, freezing the whole development of legal systems and bureaucracies in a 1930's time warp. They've only had 30 years to sort things out, including getting out of a 'militarist/dictatorship' mind set (do what you're told - don't think). A whole generation has to move on before you lessen that problem; then government employees may start thinking for themselves about how to improve things.

And Grehan,

Perhaps people like listening in to the more heated arguments? Time for more anchors?
 
Quite so. Spain has a similar legacy, of course, although it's perhaps less intrusive from our water-borne perspective (at least if you don't live here...lots of red tape if you do).
Perhaps, in the sometime heated nature of this thread, it's worth observing that just because something riles and makes us rant on the forum, that doesn't necessarily reflect our behavour towards officials or to a country and its people in general. We're all, Lady Jessie included, entitled air our views here. And Jessie is surely right that the more folk acquiesce in this nonsense, the more of it we're likely to suffer.
 
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