Unregistered charter boat

[Sailfree]

Play nicely now.....

Snookes don't waste your time Toady is a Troll. I have stated what I have witnessed however rare Another has stated what the French Almanac states. On a previous similar thread another quoted what the RYA recommend but Toady is only interested in getting someone to quote the French Penal code.

If somone did quote it I suspect Toady would question the authority of the translation. I answered the original OP as I know what charter cos do and I can quote from my limited 12 yrs experience of X channel. There was a similar thread a while ago when Toady did an identical troll and I am just anoyed at myself for rising to the troll instead of leaving it at my original post intended to try to help the OP.

Just cannot understand the mentality of someone who tries to sow dis-information in response to a genuine enquiry. it does rather negate the best feature of these forums where experience is passed on to others in such a helpful manner.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

The UN convention requires that when ships/yachts are in foreign territorial waters they must indicate their country of registration by flying the correct ensign and having evidence of registration.

No, it doesn't say that! If it does, point to the line and end this debate forever! (it is available online.)

Despite what Toad says, the French in particular can and do apply sanctions and it will be against the skipper, not the owner.

There is no legal requirement to have a skipper, so how the heck are they going to apply sanctions against a role that may not exist and certainly will not be documented? And why are there NO press reports of a British Owner/Boat being prosecuted for this?

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

that the 'prove it' arguments from some on here are very poor advice.

You honesty believe that it would be mistake to read the legislation and see the accurate details of the fixed penalty? Explain why.

One example of why seeing the legislation and fixed penalty details first hand would be useful: Few people have their tender on the SSR. Yet nobody so far has given any reason why small vessels or tenders do not need to be on the SSR when going abroad. (Indeed the RYA say they do need to be on the SSR.) Would it not be useful to see the legislation first hand to sort that out? If not, why not?

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Another has stated what the French Almanac states.

Clue: British flagged ships do not need to obey *French* shipping regulations. You do not need to be British registered to be British flagged.

Just cannot understand the mentality of someone who tries to sow dis-information in response to a genuine enquiry.

Disinformation! Surely the whole problem here is a complete lack of information 'dis' or otherwise! Your knowlege of this legislation comes from a chat with a bloke on a pontoon! In what way is that better than reading the legislation?

 

[Birvidik_Bob]

Well, they fined me

I was visited in Binic and asked for my papers, including registration. My part 1 papers had expired two days before we left. I had applied for renewal three weeks earlier but the new papers had not arrived before leaving. All other papers were in order.

We were fined 100 francs (it was just before the introduction of the euro) and told to go and get the cash from the ATM or have the boat impounded.

Perhaps it was an illegal revenue gathering act, but I wasn't willing to risk legal action, impoundment and delays on the off chance. Perhaps that's what they were banking on.

When I returned to pay there was a queue of at least 20 other non-French skippers waiting to pay up for various offences, several including failure to produce current registration documents.

It may or may not be in the French penal code but in practice I suspect that this is irrelevant.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

It may or may not be in the French penal code but in practice I suspect that this is irrelevant.

It may be irrelevant but there would seem to be no harm in finding out what the law is.

We were fined 100 francs

100F was about £10? Other's have said their fixed penalty was ~250F, 200E, 300E and 3000E. I wonder what the actual fixed penalty is - maybe someone could post a link?




PS: Excellent Blog, thanks: http://www.sailblogs.com/member/birvidik/

 

[Steve Clayton]

You don't have to carry the original documentation. I have photocopies which are MCA stamped, signed and authenticated as copies of originals.

The only doc that MCA would not issue me an authenticated copy is the entry on part 1 of the register; so high quality scanned and laminated a copy which looks just like the original.

 

[Tranona]

Ah, but there are! There have been reports in the yachting press. You just do not see them because you don't want to. And, no I am not going to find the references as with your superior powers of enquiry you can find them yourself.

If you had any powers of logical thought you would work out that such cases are very rare. Why?

BECAUSE EVERYBODY EXCEPT YOU IS PREPARED TO ACCEPT THAT REGISTRATION PAPERS ARE REQUIRED AND THERE MAY BE PENALTIES IF YOU DON'T HAVE THEM.

(Sorry for shouting, but who knows, it may work just as it may or may not with the French)

 

[Tranona]

May I remind you this information already exists in published form. The RYA publishes a book rather cunningly titled The Yachtsman's Law just in case you miss it.

The information on the requirements of the countries you mention (and taking a boat abroad in general) is well covered by the RYA website and regular articles for members in the magazine.

If this is insufficient to meet your specific needs or you feel the information is incorrect, then I suggest you take it up with the publishers.

I am sure they would welcome dealing with your issues just as forum members do !

 

[Robin]

Memo to self 'don't feed trolls'

You honesty believe that it would be mistake to read the legislation and see the accurate details of the fixed penalty? Explain why.

One example of why seeing the legislation and fixed penalty details first hand would be useful: Few people have their tender on the SSR. Yet nobody so far has given any reason why small vessels or tenders do not need to be on the SSR when going abroad. (Indeed the RYA say they do need to be on the SSR.) Would it not be useful to see the legislation first hand to sort that out? If not, why not?

We, like most on here I suspect go boating for pleasure. So if your personal pleasure is derived from getting up the noses of johnny foreigner by standing on your rights, or your interpretation of them, then please do so.

My advice to more sensible or pragmatic people is to be prepared, have all the documentation to hand and if asked present what is asked for with a pleasant smile. That way both sides can conclude the meeting both quickly and stress free.

We have regularly been asked for documents in French waters. Possibly we are selected more often because we don't have SSR numbers on the hull as the older 'Blue Book' now Part 1 registration has the registered number on the main bulkhead. The French customs cutters lurk all along the South Brittany coast and especially off the islands like Yeu, Houat, Hoedic, Belle Isle and Glenans. This is where they wait for boats incoming across Biscay or the Atlantic that might be carrying stuff they are interested in or have had intelligence information on. I suspect also that because both our current and last boats are of a size and type suited to longer passages that too makes us more of a target than if we had a Mirror dinghy with a Seagull outboard.

Our tender is clearly marked 'Tender to' or T/T and isn't a whizz bang RIB or something un-tender like. If I took a bigger RIB or similar over on a trailer I would have it registered SSR.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

We, like most on here I suspect go boating for pleasure. So if your personal pleasure is derived from getting up the noses of johnny foreigner by standing on your rights, or your interpretation of them, then please do so.

My advice to more sensible or pragmatic people is to be prepared, have all the documentation to hand and if asked present what is asked for with a pleasant smile. That way both sides can conclude the meeting both quickly and stress free.

We have regularly been asked for documents in French waters. Possibly we are selected more often because we don't have SSR numbers on the hull as the older 'Blue Book' now Part 1 registration has the registered number on the main bulkhead. The French customs cutters lurk all along the South Brittany coast and especially off the islands like Yeu, Houat, Hoedic, Belle Isle and Glenans. This is where they wait for boats incoming across Biscay or the Atlantic that might be carrying stuff they are interested in or have had intelligence information on. I suspect also that because both our current and last boats are of a size and type suited to longer passages that too makes us more of a target than if we had a Mirror dinghy with a Seagull outboard.

Our tender is clearly marked 'Tender to' or T/T and isn't a whizz bang RIB or something un-tender like. If I took a bigger RIB or similar over on a trailer I would have it registered SSR.

Err, thanks, but my question was "You honesty believe that it would be mistake to read the legislation and see the accurate details of the fixed penalty? Explain why.".

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Ah, but there are! There have been reports in the yachting press.

No there haven't. If they had you (or someone better informed) would be able to quote them. (Remember when I offered you nearly £100 to yourself or the charity of your choice if you provided some hard facts? You turned it down. I wonder why?)






Also you failed to address the following which would seem to be the key to the whole thing. I wonder why you avoided that?

The UN convention requires that when ships/yachts are in foreign territorial waters they must indicate their country of registration by flying the correct ensign and having evidence of registration.

No, it doesn't say that! If it does, point to the line and end this debate forever! (it is available online.)

I started this thread with the following two statements:

"Nobody has come up with a single documented case of a British Yachtsman being fined or imprisoned for failing to produce an original registration certificate in France.

In spite of repeated claims that the offence of sailing a leisure yacht to France with no original registration certificate is punished with a fixed penalty nobody has given the offence code, nobody has stated the offence and nobody has given a consistent value for the fixed penalty fine."

They still look true to me.

 

[Tranona]

"Nobody has come up with a single documented case of a British Yachtsman being fined or imprisoned for failing to produce an original registration certificate in France.

.

There is a very simple way of solving this forever. Next time you are in France with a boat and you are asked for your documents do not offer your boat's registration papers. You can then report the outcome to us.

Just think what a coup this would be for you. You could get headlines in the press, pay the fine, record the conversation with the official, post your receipt for the fine on here - the posssibilities are endless! Yopu might even feel able to apologise to all the well meaning people you have irritated over the years

(This should have had a smiley, but despite clicking the icon it did not appear!)

 

[Sailfree]

There is a very simple way of solving this forever. Next time you are in France with a boat and you are asked for your documents do not offer your boat's registration papers. You can then report the outcome to us.

Just think what a coup this would be for you. You could get headlines in the press, pay the fine, record the conversation with the official, post your receipt for the fine on here - the posssibilities are endless! Yopu might even feel able to apologise to all the well meaning people you have irritated over the years

(This should have had a smiley, but despite clicking the icon it did not appear!)

However much I agree with you and Robin we really must stop responding to these Trolls. While I actually witnessed someone being marched off to the hole in the wall machine and afterwards got his first hand statement (kindly dismissed by Toady as a chat with a bloke on a Pontoon) and another stated that he had been fined Toady continues with his ill informed tirade demanding a consistant fine amount and a quote from the French Penal code!

I think its right to warn newbees and try to give the correct advice but probably simpler to reply with just "TOADY IS A TROLL follow his advice at your peril". Toady is good though at posting with just the right amount of superior smugness to be irritating and get a response. Got to give him 10/10 for that.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

There is a very simple way of solving this forever. Next time you are in France with a boat and you are asked for your documents do not offer your boat's registration papers.

More blatent distraction techniques.

Provide some facts to back up:

"Ah, but there are! There have been reports in the yachting press."

"The UN convention requires that when ships/yachts are in foreign territorial waters they must indicate their country of registration by flying the correct ensign and having evidence of registration."

Or if you can't simply admit it.

 

[Tranona]

I think its right to warn newbees and try to give the correct advice but probably simpler to reply with just "TOADY IS A TROLL follow his advice at your peril". Toady is good though at posting with just the right amount of superior smugness to be irritating and get a response. Got to give him 10/10 for that.

I agree - but on reflection he is improving - once one accepts that he is incapable of believing eye witness statements and first hand accounts - as well as authoritative statements from nationally recognised authorities on the subject if they do not give him the answer he wants. However he is now asking questions that almost make sense - which is an improvement.

As both the positions he is questioning are not derived from either you or I or any other helpful forumite, but from the RYA I think we should ask him to address both questions to the RYA. He could then post his formal request for the legal authority to support their published statements. If he gets a response he could post it here then we would all have learned something.

I have actually asked him (or his alter ego, Terry) to do this in the past, but it was at a stage of his development when he was incapable of asking a question in a way that might get an answer. I even offered to formulate his questions for him.

I think the basic problem is that he is scared of being shown to be wrong which is why he does not ask the questions of experts who might be able to give an answer, but only of keen observers such as those who contribute to this forum! whom he can then ridicule for not being able to give him the answer he wants.

What a strange person!

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Toady continues with his ill informed tirade

Ill informed? You haven't the foggiest what this legislation says, do you? You're not even claiming to have seen it! Nor have I. So that leaves us equally ill informed, except for real world experience of sailing abroad which you are new to and I've been doing all my life!

I think its right to warn newbees and try to give the correct advice

What advice? You don't have the faintest idea what the legislation says. How can you usefully advise on it? You are clueless on this topic, as am I. The difference is you'd prefer not to know what the legislation says, which is incomprehensible to me.

 

[IanL]

Conclusion

I have received advice from the RYA that original documentation is required and the charter company have agreed to provide it.

I have learnt that it is important to make it clear to a charter company that you plan to cross the channel and expect to be provided with the correct papers. To visit France otherwise is not a risk I care to take.

Thanks for you contributions to the discussion.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I think the basic problem is that he is scared of being shown to be wrong

It's not possible to prove a negative so proof that there *is* legislation and a fixed penalty would actually be the best outcome for me because only that would lay the issue to rest once and for all.

I even offered to formulate his questions for him.

Indeed, I took you up on that offer and even offered £100 donation to the RNLI (or yourself) if you, as a member, asked the RYA and came up with the actual legislation and the details of the fixed penalty. You refused this. The offer is still open. That's a genuine offer and I think you believe me that it is. Why don't you accept it? What do you have to lose? (Seriously, what's the worst case scenario, you can't be proved wrong - just because the RYA don't know of any legislation doesn't prove there isn't any. So you *could* be proved right and you can't be proved wrong. All it would cost you is an e-mail.)


Anyway. I've fallen for another attempt to change the subject.

Provide some facts to back up:

"Ah, but there are! There have been reports in the yachting press."

"The UN convention requires that when ships/yachts are in foreign territorial waters they must indicate their country of registration by flying the correct ensign and having evidence of registration."

Or if you can't simply admit it.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I have received advice from the RYA that original documentation is required

Someone's made some progress! What is the fine? What details of the offence did they provide? Do you need an original SSR for the dinghy or is there a length/weight limit?