UNIVERSAL LPG - exactly what is it?

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VicMallows

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Some gas appliances I have come across specify 'universal lpg'. My searches suggest this is a term in common use in Australia/NZ (particularly amongst caravanner's), and I have seen comments that 'it is a different mix to autogas', but no idea if that is accurate.

Obviously it is a butane/propane mix in some proportion or other, but I would be interested to know the specifics.

Another interesting factor is that they assume a pressure of 27.5mb (2.75kPa). This is so close to our normal 28mb butane pressure as to be unimportant, but again seems odd when the EU has "standardised" on 30mb for caravans for both propane and butane.

Perhaps our Aus/NZ members can throw some light (or anyone else!).

Vic
 
VicMallows said:
Some gas appliances I have come across specify 'universal lpg'. My searches suggest this is a term in common use in Australia/NZ (particularly amongst caravanner's), and I have seen comments that 'it is a different mix to autogas', but no idea if that is accurate.
Click to expand...

UK Autogas changes quite significantly with the seasons: there's more propane in it in winter.
 
LPG composition changes between brands and seasons but it is generally about 90% propane and 10% butane. LPG is also common in north america.
 
Thanks for the replies. However I am still uncertain why the term 'UNIVERSAL lpg' is used in the context of appliances sold into the UK market. (obviously packaged in China specifically for UK with UK plug etc; CE marked; and instruction manual from the UK distributor).

Practical experience indicates they work perfectly on 28mb butane ...and presumably on similar pressure propane, even though heat output will be somewhat less at same pressure.

Have arrived at the conclusion that 'UNIVERSAL' simply means either butane or propane ... or any combination in between........unless anyone knows better!

Vic
 
I haven't come across the term universal LPG in the trade but i believe that it may refer to appliances that are designed to run at 30mbar as instalations in caravans from about 2004 were fitted with a 30 mbar regulator that could be fed from either propane or butane cylinders.
so only appliances badged for 30 mbar should be used on this type of regulator.
 
looking at the cookers available I see no distinction mentioned between those for butane and those for propane .. Only a few are stated to be suitable for either.

The conclusion I come to is that all the apliances now on offer ( at least for the leisure market if not for the domestic market) are suitable for butane at 28mb, propane at 37mb or either at 30 mb.

I too would assume that the labelling of the appliances as Universal LPG means that they can be used on either gas ...and probably if using the 30mb regulator any mixture of the two.
 
VicS said:
looking at the cookers available I see no distinction mentioned between those for butane and those for propane .. Only a few are stated to be suitable for either.

The conclusion I come to is that all the apliances now on offer ( at least for the leisure market if not for the domestic market) are suitable for butane at 28mb, propane at 37mb or either at 30 mb.

I too would assume that the labelling of the appliances as Universal LPG means that they can be used on either gas ...and probably if using the 30mb regulator any mixture of the two.
Click to expand...

Negative Vic
most apliances will be badged for 28mbar and 37mbar which means that they must have a supply at either 28 or 37
however if it states that a pressure of 30mbar is suitable then you must use a 30mbar reuglator that means if you use this type of reg it is possible to have a butane cylinder on one side and a propane on the other side feeding through the same reg.
you should not use a 30 mbar appliance on a 28 / 37 mbar supply and in the same way you may not use a 28 / 37 mbar appliance on a 30 mbar regulator
 
saltylegs said:
Negative Vic
most apliances will be badged for 28mbar and 37mbar which means that they must have a supply at either 28 or 37
however if it states that a pressure of 30mbar is suitable then you must use a 30mbar reuglator that means if you use this type of reg it is possible to have a butane cylinder on one side and a propane on the other side feeding through the same reg.
you should not use a 30 mbar appliance on a 28 / 37 mbar supply and in the same way you may not use a 28 / 37 mbar appliance on a 30 mbar regulator
Click to expand...

Trying to remember what my new stove was marked. Just as suitable for propane or butane I think ... no mention of pressure.

If it had said 30mb that may have been a problem because AFAIK the regulator for direct fitting to a Camping gas bottle is not a 30mb one

I always assumed that the higher pressure for propane was used because of its lower calorific value ( by volume) but I must admit to being a bit puzzled by it all especially as there does not seem to be two versions of appliances. You dont seem to have the option of specifying which gas they are to be used on.
 
The camping gaz reg is 28mbar as it is butane.
As some of the caravaning appliances come into the wider market this will become more of a problem as they will be set for the 30mbar reg and it gets worse as in the domestic market you can now buy cookers that are badged for LPG but when you read the manufactures manual you may well find that it is only to be used for propane not butane !!
the pressure difference between butane and propane is to cope with differing cv's of the gas but the airation of the burners also needs to be changed if moving between butane and propane and almost all burners now have fixe airation.

To summerise check the manufactures instructions and supply only the correct pressure be it 28 30 or 37 mabar.
this means you cannot mix appliances requiring different input pressures on the same supply
 
saltylegs said:
The camping gaz reg is 28mbar as it is butane.
As some of the caravaning appliances come into the wider market this will become more of a problem as they will be set for the 30mbar reg and it gets worse as in the domestic market you can now buy cookers that are badged for LPG but when you read the manufactures manual you may well find that it is only to be used for propane not butane !!
the pressure difference between butane and propane is to cope with differing cv's of the gas but the airation of the burners also needs to be changed if moving between butane and propane and almost all burners now have fixe airation.

To summerise check the manufactures instructions and supply only the correct pressure be it 28 30 or 37 mabar.
this means you cannot mix appliances requiring different input pressures on the same supply
Click to expand...
I am still puzzled! :confused:

I have not yet checked the spec of the new cooker. Even the instructions must be on the boat.

However i have found the instructions for the old cooker, made by Lytham Leisure Products .

They tell me that the cooker was suitable for use on butane or propane.
They also tell me that if using butane I should use a 28mb regulator and if using propane a 37mb regulator. (predates the 30mb regulators)

This is totally at odds with what you are saying as they are saying that the same appliance could be used on butane at 28mb or propane at 37mb
 
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VicS said:
I am still puzzled! :confused:
Click to expand...

Now you know why I started this thread!

I know the commonly held wisdom is that 'most appliances' work without adjustment on EITHER 28mb Butane or 37mb Propane. Also a fact that a given weight (or is it volume) of Butane contains more heat energy (aprox 10% ?) than Propane. It has always struck me as odd that given the same injector jet size you would expect the flame envelope to be the same at two significantly different pressures. I have a theory that perhaps with things like cookers where you manually adjust the gas flow, then perhaps you self-compensate when using the higher pressure. This doesn't apply to things like fridges and heaters. To design for a specific pressure (30mb) and accept a slight variation in performance between gases seems entirely logical to me

Just to throw some more spanners in the works ...... I have a new camping fridge which is stated as 27.5mb ('universal lpg' as already discussed). It runs fine on a Camping Gaz 30mb regulator (yes they do exist!). Also BES (major supplier of all things gas to industry) list their Butane regulators as 29mb (not 28mb).

Lets also not forget 50mb ..... a German/Swedish standard.....I had a camping fridge bought in Germany which came with a 50mb Camping Gaz regulator. Obtaining a replacement 50mb reg was a real pain (though BES list one for Propane!). It certainly wouldn't work on 30mb - flame too small.

I think some experimentation is called for (yes, not on the boat, and with all appropriate safety precautions bla bla).

Vic(M)
 
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I run my Cadac barbecue either on Camping Gaz (mostly butane) with a 28 mb regulator, Calor gas (butane) with a 28 mb regulator, or Calor gas (propane) or road LPG (propane) with the 30 mb regulator in my camper van. I cannot detect any difference in the flame size, colour or heat output.
 
I looked at my new cooker today ( and the instruction leaflet)
It can be used on butane at 28mb or propane at 37mb

I am using Camping gaz . I did not think to look at the regulator to see exactly what pressure it is.
 
Experiments at 30mb and 37mb

I have now conducted experiments on two appliances I have at home, using Calor Butane at 30mb and Calor Propane at 37mb.

As I anticipated, the fridge (badged as 27.5mb 'universal' ) did not like the 37mb propane.....flame far too large and unstable. It is fine on 30mb butane.

A camping stove from LIDL sold with a 28mb butane regulator was happy enough running at 37mb propane. The flame at max setting 'roared' rather more, but was entirely useable and the aeration / flame pattern were fine. There was no discernable difference at the simmer setting.

I conclude that pressure seems critical in very low rate applications, but at higher flow, rates there is quite a wide margin for satisfactory operation especially when the flow is user controlled anyway.

This does seem to correlate with the situation with mains town gas (before conversion to natural gas in early 70s). Household supplies did not then have individual regulators on the meter, and pressure /cooking performance would drop makedly sometimes .... especially on Christmas morning!!. However permanent pilot burners on things like boilers had a dedicated small regulator, presumably set below the lowest 'normal' supply pressure. These
regulators were generally over-ridden when converted as the supply within the house was now regulated at the meter from a higher incoming supply pressure.

Vic (M)
 
VicMallows said:
....

Lets also not forget 50mb ..... a German/Swedish standard.....I had a camping fridge bought in Germany which came with a 50mb Camping Gaz regulator. Obtaining a replacement 50mb reg was a real pain (though BES list one for Propane!). It certainly wouldn't work on 30mb - flame too small.

I think some experimentation is called for (yes, not on the boat, and with all appropriate safety precautions bla bla).

Vic(M)
Click to expand...

When I got my boat it was running with a 37mb regulator, for the cooker, the only gas appliance.

I used it happily for years..

Some years later my girlfriend was bitching about how slow my cooker was... (we're liveaboards), around that time had read some previous thread on here about regulators, and had noticed a couple of German stickers in the upper helm mentioning '50mbar'.

The owner before last, had my boat in moored in Germany.

All it started to click, took my Plastimo Pacific off it's mountings, sure enough the label on the back has something about 50Mbar.

Changed my regulator for a 50Mbar one, from Calour http://www.calortoolbox.co.uk/acatalog/propane-regulators.html (although I'm a big Flogas fan, much cheaper), and now I'm getting more than a cheese sandwhich for supper.
 
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