UK Governmemnt Consultation on Red Diesel

Perhaps the RYA should step in and speak up for motor boat owners, I know Y stands for yacht but a lot of us Mobo-ers are also members
 
The RYA have a very good track record on defending red diesel / motor boaters so I don't think there's any reason to suspect they will act differently here.

If you read the call for evidence the government are interested in seeing how red diesel is used particularly in urban areas. That wouldn't really include coastal motorboats would it.

Similarly they acknowledge that changes to duty could detrimentally affect business and user groups. This would certainly be the case with motor boats.

At this stage I don't think anyone is looking to persecute boat owners.

Henry :)
 
It seems unfair that owners of petrol engined boats have to pay as a minimum road prices for their fuel whilst owners of diesel engined boats ( me included) pay below road diesel prices.

Likewise farmers, gas fired and coal power stations airlines, police , other emergency services and commercial fishing boats; organic fuel is fuel, they should pay the same tax on the fuel they use as other fuel users pay.
 
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If you read the paper you will find there are sound reasons for the "excepted" categories that are allowed to use marked diesel with reduced rates of duty - some going back nearly 100 years. The consultation is about the pattern of usage now from the point of view of such users, rather than the global figures derived from the distribution network. The aim is to determine if usage of diesel 9and therefor pollution) can be reduced, particularly in urban areas. Leisure boat usage is just a sideshow but very visible because of the row with the EU, which presumably will go away in 2019.
 
Strictly speaking the lower duty reflects the part use of the diesel for domestic use , primarily heating, which is taxed at a lower rate . Just like domestic heating oil.
If you want to declare 100% use for propulsion and pay more tax you are free to do so. But a 60/40 split is accepted as more than fair without dispute .

There is also a case that non road use should not pay duty intended to contribute to road maintenance . I believe not too many years ago the duty on red diesel for boats was very low but the duty was increased, I think in part, due to pressure exerted by the EU. Now we are leaving the EU the government more freedom to consider making changes of any sort.

Petrol is not used as a heating fuel on boats a far as I know . That why it is not offered as lower rate of duty. Nor is it sensible to encourage the use of petrol for heating.
 
Red diesel is easily identifiable and enough is used to make its production and distribution viable.

So little non road petrol is used that production and distribution is not viable. It would actually cost more than normal road fuel!

There are places where you can buy specialist petrol particularly for race use. This petrol features a higher octane rating and / or very carefully regulated ingredients and characteristics. You don't even want to know how expensive it is. The other problem with petrol is that is has a shelf life. Unlike diesel it deteriorates, next time you're trying to get your mower out of extended hibernation put new fuel in and it will fire up easily.

Henry :)
 
An interesting subject.The main objection in the the light of present evidence to diesel engines is the effects on public health.Whatever the rights and wrongs of previous administrations,the fact is that diesel emissions overall need to be reduced and in or out of the EU a method of reducing the problem needs to be decided.
The real fly in the ointment is the amount of pollution generated by commercial shipping,however that is a different can of worms.
Our interest is probably purely leisure boating.
Non urban use is not good wheeze for trying to avoid the fact that marine powered craft have large capacity engines designed for one thing and one thing only .......speed and compared with their road going versions use fuel in a profligate way.
The marine industry has long been hiding under the duvet of reduced duty fuel and its time the business was made to enter the 21st century.
...and show me single new boat with any form of emissions filter in the exhaust...?
It certainly does not feature on the front cover of any Sunseeker/Fairline/Princess brochure I have ever seen and all those fumes you breathe when engines are going is not clean mountain air.
 
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Does anybody on here really think that the government will change a law tat ruduces the tax they can receive....?

I started sailing 21 years ago and red diesel was 18p per litre....shows you how much it's gone up recently...and this is not because we are running out. Just that everybody wants to make more profit these days.

21 years ago the cost of crude oil was about $40 a barrel and today its $58 ish. But the cost to us has gone up from 18p to about £1 a litre.....somebody is making lots of money here?
 
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oldgit said:
An interesting subject.The main objection in the the light of present evidence to diesel engines is the effects on public health.Whatever the rights and wrongs of previous administrations,the fact is that diesel emissions overall need to be reduced and in or out of the EU a method of reducing the problem needs to be decided.
The real fly in the ointment is the amount of pollution generated by commercial shipping,however that is a different can of worms.
Our interest is probably purely leisure boating.
Non urban use is not good wheeze for trying to avoid the fact that marine powered craft have large capacity engines designed for one thing and one thing only .......speed and compared with their road going versions use fuel in a profligate way.
The marine industry has long been hiding under the duvet of reduced duty fuel and its time the business was made to enter the 21st century.
...and show me single new boat with any form of emissions filter in the exhaust...?
It certainly does not feature on the front cover of any Sunseeker/Fairline/Princess brochure I have ever seen and all those fumes you breathe when engines are going is not clean mountain air.
Click to expand...

You make a god point here. I a man a flying instructor and the same thing has happened with light aircraft. Engines had not changed for years and years...all the same design dating back to the war...using about 30ltr an hour or so.

Then microloghts came along...people designed small powerful engines that never faile and used 12ltrs and hour....now the world of light aircraft has caught up.

The problem with boats is that engine design is still very old and basic...large capacity...low revving big diesels. It is very possible to make smaller petrol engines that use far less fuel these days but nobody seems to be doing be doing this.

Apart from electronics and final drive design has the boat diesel changed much in the past 30 years?
 
Perhaps surprisingly, over many years, the Government has resisted calls from the EU to put duty on red diesel. The current 60/40 arrangement was some sort of compromise to kick the problem further down the road. It seemed a pragmatic approach but the EU will probably only ever be satisfied if we have separate tanks for white (propulsion) and red (heating) diesel.

I'm not sure whether it is still relevant to very modern petrol or diesel engines but I read a scientific report a few years back that was discussing particulate emissions. The gist of it was that diesel emissions were very visible (lots of black smoke) whilst petrol emissions were invisible and so generally thought not to be a problem. Apparently, it is not quite as simple as that, as petrol still produces particulate emissions - it's just that, because they are so much smaller, you don't see them. The snag highlighted in the report was that petrol particulates, being so much smaller, were very much more difficult for the body to intercept / filter and, consequently, they travelled rather further into the lungs than diesel particulates. It is these fine particulates, therefore, that have the greatest health effects - maybe something has changed in the meanwhile...
 
Can we now await the wholesale changeover from diesel cars to petrol, and then , in 5 years or so for so, for 'Public Health' to declare that petrol emissions, being finer, are more harmful than diesel and should be taxed to a greater extent.
cynical- moi?
 
oldgit said:
The marine industry has long been hiding under the duvet of reduced duty fuel and its time the business was made to enter the 21st century.
...and show me single new boat with any form of emissions filter in the exhaust...?
It certainly does not feature on the front cover of any Sunseeker/Fairline/Princess brochure I have ever seen
Click to expand...

Given that probably 98% of Sunseeker/Fairline/Princess production is exported, in what way are they 'hiding under the duvet of reduced duty fuel'?
 
ari said:
Given that probably 98% of Sunseeker/Fairline/Princess production is exported, in what way are they 'hiding under the duvet of reduced duty fuel'?
Click to expand...

Simply because to date, speed and power have always been a positive point in their target market , with fuel economy a secondary factor and the pollution coming out the exhaust not a problem....?
Suspect that more than 2% of the big three output end up at some point in the UK and if the EU does continue to look more closely at diesel engines in all markets, at some point boat emissions will be under scrutiny.
If the EU leads the big three will have no choice.
Bet there are already big bucks being lined up to spend in the Westminster lobbies ?
 
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