mick
Well-Known Member
Is there something I should know about two-stroke oil formulated (allegedly) for outboards? I have just bought a chainsaw whose manual warns against using such oil.
Two-stroke oil?
- Thread starter mick
- Start date
sailorman
Well-Known Member
Brace Yer self /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Its like WOT Anchor /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Its like WOT Anchor /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Refueler
Well-Known Member
TSW is for water cooled that run cooler ... TSA is for air cooled that run hotter ...
Shoooooosh ... I run whatever I have in all my gear - but yes it does make a difference !
Shoooooosh ... I run whatever I have in all my gear - but yes it does make a difference !
G
Guest
Guest
I believe the caution may have something to do with the operating temperature - air-cooled 2-strokes run a lot hotter than their water-cooled cousins.
mick
Well-Known Member
Thanks. I am a bear of little brain tonight.
Keith 66
Well-Known Member
I use nothing but Stihl two stroke oil, it is excellent quality and comes in a properly designed easy to use dispenser. Unlike the crap sold in chandlers it does not fill your carb with crud, in short it works.
Refueler
Well-Known Member
Stihl 2T is air cooled variety and will be slightly more robust than water variety + it has additives that are suited to carry away any results of combustion that may enter crank chamber etc.
Water variety has slightly different additives and characteristics.... and supposed to be better environmentally - so I'm told !
I use either that is at hand for either use ... but tend to carry TCW on board ready for my O/bd. I have other O/bds that get what comes ! same as my Chain Saw, Generator etc. etc.
Water variety has slightly different additives and characteristics.... and supposed to be better environmentally - so I'm told !
I use either that is at hand for either use ... but tend to carry TCW on board ready for my O/bd. I have other O/bds that get what comes ! same as my Chain Saw, Generator etc. etc.
planteater
Well-Known Member
I have a 20 year old Mercury that is still running fine. According to the empties littering the lockers the previous owner put 5L of motorbike oil through it with no ill effects.
VicS
Well-Known Member
Better any oil than no oil. Actually I would be happier about using an air cooled engine oil in a water cooled outboard than using an outboard oil in an air cooled engine. Having said that outboard oil is specified for an old air cooled outboard engine I own.
Nigel mentions biodegradability something which has arrived with the latest spec, TCW-3, outboard oil I believe. If you want your polluting old two stroke to be as environmentally friendly as possible then the biodegradability then a good reason to use TCW3. Although I think some air cooled engine oils are also biodegradeable.
If I spent a shed load of money for a new engine I'd jolly well use the recommended oil any way.
Nigel mentions biodegradability something which has arrived with the latest spec, TCW-3, outboard oil I believe. If you want your polluting old two stroke to be as environmentally friendly as possible then the biodegradability then a good reason to use TCW3. Although I think some air cooled engine oils are also biodegradeable.
If I spent a shed load of money for a new engine I'd jolly well use the recommended oil any way.
Refueler
Well-Known Member
We don't blend or deal in 2T unfortunately so I can only ask around for info. Usual answer I get is one will make engine smoke more ! Which way I cannot remember ...
Not that I notice any difference ... I use 2T from gasoline station, I have Quicksilver 2T on the boat still from last period in UK ! Which ever is at hand gets used in my strimmers, small Wolf Genny, 3 working outboards, Chain saws etc. etc. They are all still running fine.
Not that I notice any difference ... I use 2T from gasoline station, I have Quicksilver 2T on the boat still from last period in UK ! Which ever is at hand gets used in my strimmers, small Wolf Genny, 3 working outboards, Chain saws etc. etc. They are all still running fine.
steve_l
Well-Known Member
I use my old end-of-season outboard mix for the chain saw during the winter as that's the best time to cut the firewood. Just add some extra oil to bring up the ratio a bit (100:1 for the outboard, chain saw needs 25:1).
During winter at -15C to -20C, the running temperature is probably equivalent to a water-cooled motor anyway...
-steve-
During winter at -15C to -20C, the running temperature is probably equivalent to a water-cooled motor anyway...
-steve-
jenku
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
During winter at -15C to -20C, the running temperature is probably equivalent to a water-cooled motor anyway...
-steve-
[/ QUOTE ]
Are you sure? I would think the running temperature would be the same only in colder weather it would take longer for the engine to warm up?
During winter at -15C to -20C, the running temperature is probably equivalent to a water-cooled motor anyway...
-steve-
[/ QUOTE ]
Are you sure? I would think the running temperature would be the same only in colder weather it would take longer for the engine to warm up?
Refueler
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I use my old end-of-season outboard mix for the chain saw during the winter as that's the best time to cut the firewood. Just add some extra oil to bring up the ratio a bit (100:1 for the outboard, chain saw needs 25:1).
During winter at -15C to -20C, the running temperature is probably equivalent to a water-cooled motor anyway...
-steve-
[/ QUOTE ]
Just a small comment ... most outboards that were 100-1 were then reverted to 50-1 some years ago. No change mechanically - but manufacturers altered literature. Think nit was because some were no so careful about mixing and may have not had even 100-1 going in. 50-1 is safe.
My Stihl is 50-1 ... infact all my gear strimmers, chainsaws, outboards etc. .... all 50-1.
I use my old end-of-season outboard mix for the chain saw during the winter as that's the best time to cut the firewood. Just add some extra oil to bring up the ratio a bit (100:1 for the outboard, chain saw needs 25:1).
During winter at -15C to -20C, the running temperature is probably equivalent to a water-cooled motor anyway...
-steve-
[/ QUOTE ]
Just a small comment ... most outboards that were 100-1 were then reverted to 50-1 some years ago. No change mechanically - but manufacturers altered literature. Think nit was because some were no so careful about mixing and may have not had even 100-1 going in. 50-1 is safe.
My Stihl is 50-1 ... infact all my gear strimmers, chainsaws, outboards etc. .... all 50-1.
TrueBlue
Well-Known Member
I\'ve always wanted to ask -
this question:-
I use modern (quicksilver) 2T oil in my aged Seagulls and this last two years I have suffered from large volumes of green gloop in the float chamber when left for a week or more (It's not practical to empty the chamber completely) There's always about 20cc left.
I was wondering whether the modern oils suffer from "precipitation" when used at high concentrations 20:1.
I can't buy older style oils - I guess that TCW3 oils are synthetic(?) and older types are mineral.
Any ideas??
this question:-
I use modern (quicksilver) 2T oil in my aged Seagulls and this last two years I have suffered from large volumes of green gloop in the float chamber when left for a week or more (It's not practical to empty the chamber completely) There's always about 20cc left.
I was wondering whether the modern oils suffer from "precipitation" when used at high concentrations 20:1.
I can't buy older style oils - I guess that TCW3 oils are synthetic(?) and older types are mineral.
Any ideas??
Refueler
Well-Known Member
Re: I\'ve always wanted to ask -
[ QUOTE ]
this question:-
I use modern (quicksilver) 2T oil in my aged Seagulls and this last two years I have suffered from large volumes of green gloop in the float chamber when left for a week or more (It's not practical to empty the chamber completely) There's always about 20cc left.
I was wondering whether the modern oils suffer from "precipitation" when used at high concentrations 20:1.
I can't buy older style oils - I guess that TCW3 oils are synthetic(?) and older types are mineral.
Any ideas??
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't deal in 2T oils ... but what you describe appears to be possibly a combination of gasoline gums and 2T drop out.
Gasoline has not been staright for many years - it is a blend of various products and needs anti-oxidant stabilisers. In early days of blending was red residues in gasoline due to certain additives. They were banned.
Green is the confusing colour for me.
Seagull - I can't remember if this actually has water pass round engine or just cools exhaust side ? If it just cools exhaust side - then surely TCA is good enough. I seem to recall that Saving Seagulls mentions use of light lub oil ?
[ QUOTE ]
this question:-
I use modern (quicksilver) 2T oil in my aged Seagulls and this last two years I have suffered from large volumes of green gloop in the float chamber when left for a week or more (It's not practical to empty the chamber completely) There's always about 20cc left.
I was wondering whether the modern oils suffer from "precipitation" when used at high concentrations 20:1.
I can't buy older style oils - I guess that TCW3 oils are synthetic(?) and older types are mineral.
Any ideas??
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't deal in 2T oils ... but what you describe appears to be possibly a combination of gasoline gums and 2T drop out.
Gasoline has not been staright for many years - it is a blend of various products and needs anti-oxidant stabilisers. In early days of blending was red residues in gasoline due to certain additives. They were banned.
Green is the confusing colour for me.
Seagull - I can't remember if this actually has water pass round engine or just cools exhaust side ? If it just cools exhaust side - then surely TCA is good enough. I seem to recall that Saving Seagulls mentions use of light lub oil ?
VicS
Well-Known Member
Re: I\'ve always wanted to ask -
The Seagull engines certainly are water cooled and with no thermostat do run relatively cool. The exhaust apart from having the water pipe from the pump running inside it is not cooled.
The current recommendation you will get from Saving old Seagulls is to use a TCW-3 oil. Back in the early 1970s when my two where made there was no such thing as TCW oils and the recommended oils were all 2 stroke motor cycle oils. The hand book does say that if these are non-obtainable a straight non-detergent SAE30 oil can be used.
I used an SAE 30 oil at one time because it was readily available. At 10:1 oh boy does it smoke!
I now use Quicksilver oil in my Seagulls and in a larger Evinrude and never experienced what True blue reports.
There are two grades of Quicksilver one is mineral the other synthetic I think. I use the bog standard stuff. That is a very deep blue so may be the cause of the green colour but if it is I have not noticed it.
I wonder if the fuel tap is letting by slightly and if over a period there is a build up of oil in the carb as the petrol evaporates.
I once had some two stroke oil go funny on me. I cannot remember the make but it was some that had been on the garage shelf for some years. Gloop would have been an understatement. I just would not mix with the petrol properly.
Correct mix for most Seagulls was 10:1 although later ones were 25:1. Some of the 10:1 models can be converted or even run on 25:1 depending on age and type of carb. All info on the SOS website.
The Seagull engines certainly are water cooled and with no thermostat do run relatively cool. The exhaust apart from having the water pipe from the pump running inside it is not cooled.
The current recommendation you will get from Saving old Seagulls is to use a TCW-3 oil. Back in the early 1970s when my two where made there was no such thing as TCW oils and the recommended oils were all 2 stroke motor cycle oils. The hand book does say that if these are non-obtainable a straight non-detergent SAE30 oil can be used.
I used an SAE 30 oil at one time because it was readily available. At 10:1 oh boy does it smoke!
I now use Quicksilver oil in my Seagulls and in a larger Evinrude and never experienced what True blue reports.
There are two grades of Quicksilver one is mineral the other synthetic I think. I use the bog standard stuff. That is a very deep blue so may be the cause of the green colour but if it is I have not noticed it.
I wonder if the fuel tap is letting by slightly and if over a period there is a build up of oil in the carb as the petrol evaporates.
I once had some two stroke oil go funny on me. I cannot remember the make but it was some that had been on the garage shelf for some years. Gloop would have been an understatement. I just would not mix with the petrol properly.
Correct mix for most Seagulls was 10:1 although later ones were 25:1. Some of the 10:1 models can be converted or even run on 25:1 depending on age and type of carb. All info on the SOS website.
TrueBlue
Well-Known Member
Re: I\'ve always wanted to ask -
Thanks Refueler and VicS,
I use Quicksilver premium and at about 20:1 in my 40+ 'gulls. 20:1 was suggested [i by someone who (really) knows his 'gulls[/i] as the intermediate engines - those later than the earliest ones which can only run on 10:1 and the last models made which were officially 25:1. These in the middle were "OK" to run at 25:1, but as the quality of oils have improved, and are designed to work with roller bearings rather than the plain bearing of a seagull, it was suggested to err on the side of caution. So that's the mix issue answered.
Quicksilver oil - agreed - is a dark bluish colour in it's concentrated form. When diluted to 20:1 it appears as a bluish green, and that is the colour of the gloop in the carburettor bowl.
There is no trace of gloop in the main fuel tank.
The reaction with the fuel makes some sense to me as this problem only started late in the 2007 season - ? general change in formulation of the fuel.
I'd be happy with SAE30 if the engine was running at 10:1 (which is when that suggestion was published), but at 20:1.
What to do guys? I can only buy QS at my inland chandleries, Comma no longer sell marine 2T, and I'm not aware of any other brands.
Thanks Refueler and VicS,
I use Quicksilver premium and at about 20:1 in my 40+ 'gulls. 20:1 was suggested [i by someone who (really) knows his 'gulls[/i] as the intermediate engines - those later than the earliest ones which can only run on 10:1 and the last models made which were officially 25:1. These in the middle were "OK" to run at 25:1, but as the quality of oils have improved, and are designed to work with roller bearings rather than the plain bearing of a seagull, it was suggested to err on the side of caution. So that's the mix issue answered.
Quicksilver oil - agreed - is a dark bluish colour in it's concentrated form. When diluted to 20:1 it appears as a bluish green, and that is the colour of the gloop in the carburettor bowl.
There is no trace of gloop in the main fuel tank.
The reaction with the fuel makes some sense to me as this problem only started late in the 2007 season - ? general change in formulation of the fuel.
I'd be happy with SAE30 if the engine was running at 10:1 (which is when that suggestion was published), but at 20:1.
What to do guys? I can only buy QS at my inland chandleries, Comma no longer sell marine 2T, and I'm not aware of any other brands.
VicS
Well-Known Member
Re: I\'ve always wanted to ask -
No problem with the 20:1 mix. Possibly even sensible even if you make it work hard for its living.
Don't know who your "someone who knows his gulls" is but my info comes from the Saving old Seagulls website
Models pre 1968 had smaller bearings and must be run on 10:1 most after that date can be converted to 25:1 by changing carb needle, or jet or even without modification depending upon model (or more precisely carb). Post 1979 they were supplied ready to run on 25:1. Your carb has been converted I take it.
However your problem is a puzzle. I just looked at mine and apart from being a little oily the carb bowl is perfectly clean, after standing for about 3 months.
I am using the same oil as you although it may be a couple of years old.
The fact that there is no gloop in the fuel tank to me makes the theory of an reaction with the petrol unlikely.
There is a short paragraph from John Williams on his website about fuel problems in "the last few months" but as his remarks are not dated I dont know how recent that is. I have not noticed it before though. Anyway he refers to a brown gum!
Check that what I suggested about the fuel tap is not happening. Having cleaned the bowl let it stand for a while with fuel in the tank and then check there is no signs of fuel slowly leaking past the tap. (Instructions on the SOS website for rejuvenating old corks or replacing them if necessary.)
There are other brands of oil but Quicksilver is the one I see most commonly. Most/some of the various outboard manufacturers flog their own labelled stuff but you really should not be having problems with Quicksilver. I assume you are not down to the dregs of a big can of the stuff that you have had for ages.
I suggest you put your question on the Saving old Seagulls forum that's where all the Seagull experts and fanatics hang out.
No problem with the 20:1 mix. Possibly even sensible even if you make it work hard for its living.
Don't know who your "someone who knows his gulls" is but my info comes from the Saving old Seagulls website
Models pre 1968 had smaller bearings and must be run on 10:1 most after that date can be converted to 25:1 by changing carb needle, or jet or even without modification depending upon model (or more precisely carb). Post 1979 they were supplied ready to run on 25:1. Your carb has been converted I take it.
However your problem is a puzzle. I just looked at mine and apart from being a little oily the carb bowl is perfectly clean, after standing for about 3 months.
I am using the same oil as you although it may be a couple of years old.
The fact that there is no gloop in the fuel tank to me makes the theory of an reaction with the petrol unlikely.
There is a short paragraph from John Williams on his website about fuel problems in "the last few months" but as his remarks are not dated I dont know how recent that is. I have not noticed it before though. Anyway he refers to a brown gum!
Check that what I suggested about the fuel tap is not happening. Having cleaned the bowl let it stand for a while with fuel in the tank and then check there is no signs of fuel slowly leaking past the tap. (Instructions on the SOS website for rejuvenating old corks or replacing them if necessary.)
There are other brands of oil but Quicksilver is the one I see most commonly. Most/some of the various outboard manufacturers flog their own labelled stuff but you really should not be having problems with Quicksilver. I assume you are not down to the dregs of a big can of the stuff that you have had for ages.
I suggest you put your question on the Saving old Seagulls forum that's where all the Seagull experts and fanatics hang out.
TrueBlue
Well-Known Member
Re: I\'ve always wanted to ask -
Vic -
I mean that nice man at Moulsford - nearly opposite that other nice rollup-smoking-man.
I shall follow up your SOS suggestion shortly.
The strange thing is it only happens when the dinghy is on its mooring. Leaving a mix in the same engine here (out of season) always starts first(ish) pull and gloop-less.
Vic -
I mean that nice man at Moulsford - nearly opposite that other nice rollup-smoking-man.
I shall follow up your SOS suggestion shortly.
The strange thing is it only happens when the dinghy is on its mooring. Leaving a mix in the same engine here (out of season) always starts first(ish) pull and gloop-less.
Refueler
Well-Known Member
Re: I\'ve always wanted to ask -
UK based gasoline and EU where controlled - certain additives have been banned for spiking gasoline. (Boosting Octane). These additives if gasoline is exposed to light and oxygen for period cause a dark reddish goop to form drops in the bottom of container. This is common with gasoline in Africa and various other less controlled areas.
If it's not additive based - then it could be due to the oxidation stability being suspect. It is not unknown for a poor stability product to be blended into good to drain down stock. Nothing wrong with that - the final product is still within spec. But if you subject the fuel to longer storage / diversed use - then it may show signs.
Before anyone thinks this is only 'cheap outlets' - think again - it can be any company.
UK based gasoline and EU where controlled - certain additives have been banned for spiking gasoline. (Boosting Octane). These additives if gasoline is exposed to light and oxygen for period cause a dark reddish goop to form drops in the bottom of container. This is common with gasoline in Africa and various other less controlled areas.
If it's not additive based - then it could be due to the oxidation stability being suspect. It is not unknown for a poor stability product to be blended into good to drain down stock. Nothing wrong with that - the final product is still within spec. But if you subject the fuel to longer storage / diversed use - then it may show signs.
Before anyone thinks this is only 'cheap outlets' - think again - it can be any company.