Two brokers with the same boat.

[BurnitBlue]

I have an ethical problem I am not happy with. I used Broker (a) to view a boat abroad. I now want to buy this boat. Unfortunitely for me the broker (a) who showed me the boat and answered my questions does not operate a Sterling client account.

His business practice is to accept 10% in his currency (Euro's) to his bank account and then give me details of the owners bank account who I then pay seperately in Sterling to complete the transaction.

The other broker who also has this boat has done nothing for me but I discover that this Broker (b) does have a client account in Sterling for both deposit and balance. I had no idea of the of the business practice of Broker (a) until he had contacted the seller with my offer and we got down to actual nitty gritty.

I want to switch to Broker (b) because his Client account exclusively in Sterling has better protection and is a lot cheaper (avoiding FX rates) plus the final pay-out is a one day, one time affair, so if the seller backs out or I get gazumped, I get the full refund.

I feel I am treading on ethical toes here. My wife thinks I am a wimp and that a banker (for instance) would not hesitate for a second in switching to the better Broker to save a penny.
I guess I am looking for justification for using (unwittingly) Broker (a) for the legwork and giving Broker (b) the business. So what are your thoughts please.

 

[Swagman]

Neither is actually your broker, but rather both are the broker of the vendor. He pays them - not you.

From the way you've described the scenario, I am pretty sure broker A would make a very good case to claim his vendors commission for 'selling' you the boat even if you moved now to broker B. Or dealt direct with the vendor and forgot the brokers completely.

But if you switched to broker B now then I am pretty sure the vendor would be faced with two brokers claiming commission due. Possibly not something the vendor would want, but he might not even think about it......

But why not tell broker A you want him to open a stirling account and why you want it - OR you'll find another broker that has one?

I suggest that might do the trick.

Cheers
JOHN

 

[alphaboat]

I got into trouble with two brokers in Greece listing the same boat and all I was trying to do was view it. I innocently thought that it was two different boats as they had different photos, different descriptions and different prices so set up two appointments. There was quite an argument between the brokers when one of them figured it out and he was pretty hostile about it. He acted as though we were trying to cheat him out of something when it was a genuine and, in my view, completely understandable mistake.

To avoid similar problems I suggest approaching broker A who has actually done all the work and explain your issues, pointing out that broker B's sytem is better, and try to resolve the situation with him. I'm sure he won't want to lose the commission. If he won't help you out then you would be perfectly justified in pulling out and then approaching broker B.

Good luck!

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

You should deal with whomever you want to. Tell broker b that the business is his, but he has to , of course, sort things out with the seller. The issue of double commission is not your problem.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Neither is actually your broker, but rather both are the broker of the vendor. He pays them - not you.

But why not tell broker A you want him to open a stirling account and why you want it - OR you'll find another broker that has one?

ICheers
JOHN

Apparantly a client account for Broker (a) contravenes Greek law so he has to do business this way. I believe it is a VAT thing on any funds passing through Broker (a)'s bank account so he cannot accept the 90% balance through his account.

Broker (b) is UK based with a Greek office so he seems to get round that problem.

Hadn't thought about the two brokers fighting for the commission. Either way it is the sellers fault for instructing two brokers. On the other hand, surely a non-exclusive contract makes it a mute point except for the ethics.

 

[BurnitBlue]

You should deal with whomever you want to. Tell broker b that the business is his, but he has to , of course, sort things out with the seller. The issue of double commission is not your problem.

That's the answer I was hoping for. A secondary issue is that I would have to tell Broker (b) that the seller has given me his bottom price via Broker (a) so Broker (b) may decline to accept me as a buyer. This is because both brokers have an office withing rock throwing distance from one another.

If Broker (b) declines the switch I will have to walk because there is no way I will be comfortable with a time frame of six weeks between deposit and final payment. (This is according to Broker (a)'s terms of business leaflet he handed to me).

These days a lot can happen in six weeks on the cerrency front.

 

[snowleopard]

The issue of double commission is not your problem.

I knew someone who was selling a house and the buyer started with one broker then switched to another. Both claimed the full commission and the only way he had to avoid it was to pull the plug on the sale.

Brokers are adept at making sure they get their fees so just telling one you don't want to do the transaction through him isn't likely to put him off demanding his fees. If it were that easy a lot of buyers would simply go direct to the vendor and split the broker's fee.

 

[DownWest]

On property deals here, when one looks at the 'book' of possibilities, one signs a form that binds one to paying a commission even if one deals direct with the owner or another agent. Because one learned of the sale through the broker. Is this the case? I am surprised that UK based brokers with offices in Greece are not bound by the same rules as Greek brokers. You need to talk to the owner and agree something. Ethicly, you owe (a) but very few would do it if not forced. Bit jaundiced here but, seen a lot of iffy ethics in the med area, where legal comebacks are long and costly.

 

[nmeyrick]

If I were in the OP's position I would not feel any moral obligation to proceed with broker A. You entered into negotiations with him in good faith, intending to do the deal if reasonable terms could be agreed. Only once the sale had been agreed in principle were you made aware that his terms of business include a clause which makes using him a risk from your point of view.

I would share your concerns about this payment process, as not only does it leave you open to currency risk which as you say over 6 weeks could be considerable, it may also give you less protection if anything were to go amiss in that period with either the seller or broker.

I would be inclined to discuss with the broker whether he is able to vary his terms at all. If no help is forthcoming I would level with the seller and say you are ready to buy the boat but not on those terms and see what he can agree. As others have commented the brokers act for the seller, so really if there is a disagreement between them it is an issue for the seller and not for you.


Ultimately if you feel that you are unwilling to take the risk that this broker's terms pose and no alternative can be agreed you should probably walk away

 

[BurnitBlue]

I have signed nothing and I have not entered into a committment with Broker (a). Up to now it has just been a viewing of what boats he has on his list. I left Greece before I even got the lowest price from the seller of the boat I wanted because I had to beat the bad weather at the airports. As a matter of fact the offer I made while I was down there was rejected by the seller who came back with a revised selling price slightly higher than my bid, but by that time I was in the air on my way back.

This gave me time to find out from Yachtworld and the internet that this boat was also handled by a UK Broker (b) based in Levkas who has a sterling client account.

As a note, there are at least three boats for sale in Preveza which are handled by more than one broker. In one case, a Vancouver 32 the boat is in the hands of THREE brokers at different asking prices plus the sellers own ad on Apollo Duck at a very substantial lower asking price than any of the three brokers.

This is causing me problems because initially I make contact with only one broker only to discover the other brokers later. Google Vancouver 32 for sale and you can see the problem this seller is handing to the buyer. BTW the Vancouver 32 is not the boat I am aiming for.

Thanks for your patience. Up to now, I am inclined to go to Broker (b) if possible or walk. Thanks for the replies. I don't want to jinx the sale with bad luck vibes.

 

[BurnitBlue]

If I were in the OP's position I would not feel any moral obligation to proceed with broker A. You entered into negotiations with him in good faith, intending to do the deal if reasonable terms could be agreed. Only once the sale had been agreed in principle were you made aware that his terms of business include a clause which makes using him a risk from your point of view.

I would share your concerns about this payment process, as not only does it leave you open to currency risk which as you say over 6 weeks could be considerable, it may also give you less protection if anything were to go amiss in that period with either the seller or broker.

Thanks nmeyrick, exactly my thoughts. It is getting clear to me that the ethical problem is only because the seller has given me a choice between two brokers.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

I feel I am treading on ethical toes here. My wife thinks I am a wimp and that a banker (for instance) would not hesitate for a second in switching to the better Broker to save a penny.
I guess I am looking for justification for using (unwittingly) Broker (a) for the legwork and giving Broker (b) the business. So what are your thoughts please.

You are right to be very wary. You can expect trouble in Greece if you have a Greek broker complaining he has been stitched up by a Brit buyer using a Brit agent. Could be that you pay the money but the boat isnt released to you for example . I dont know what might happen but I wouldnt take the risk since you effectively have little or no legal recourse.

Can the owner not sail the boat to somewhere else within the EU and you do the transaction there?

 

[BurnitBlue]

You are right to be very wary. You can expect trouble in Greece if you have a Greek broker complaining he has been stitched up by a Brit buyer using a Brit agent. Could be that you pay the money but the boat isnt released to you for example . I dont know what might happen but I wouldnt take the risk since you effectively have little or no legal recourse.

Can the owner not sail the boat to somewhere else within the EU and you do the transaction there?

Yippes, that is a very good warning. The boat is ashore in Preveza Marin next to Aktio and cannot be moved until Spring.

Have just thought that, for you budding detectives, there are enough clues in my post to identify Broker (a) and Broker (b) and possibly the boat. A Christmas Internet puzzle for you.

 

[capsco]

Yippes, that is a very good warning. The boat is ashore in Preveza Marin next to Aktio and cannot be moved until Spring.

Have just thought that, for you budding detectives, there are enough clues in my post to identify Broker (a) and Broker (b) and possibly the boat. A Christmas Internet puzzle for you.

Bossun Higgs is correct if you upset the Greek broker you could find yourself in a very difficult situation, do NOT go there.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Bossun Higgs is correct if you upset the Greek broker you could find yourself in a very difficult situation, do NOT go there.

You may be right. Another wasted viewing trip.

Incidentally, I was sitting in the cockpit waiting for the broker to take the covers off the engine when a woman (probably a liveaboard) passed by. She said hello and remarked that I looked sexy sitting behind the wheel. This made me fire up the question in the lounge about whether owning a boat made a man sexier.

Now I will never know unless I can come to a better payment system from Broker (a). Maybe it was a combination of that particular boat and me.

 

[penfold]

Do you have a better half/sibling/parent/child who could act as a proxy, buying the boat in their name then immediately signing it over to you? Morally questionable, but it gets around broker A's claim on the transaction.

 

[Ubergeekian]

Do you have a better half/sibling/parent/child who could act as a proxy, buying the boat in their name then immediately signing it over to you? Morally questionable, but it gets around broker A's claim on the transaction.

If Broker A has done the actual selling work, doesn't Broker A deserve the commission? What is the problem with the proposed payment method anyway?

 

[BurnitBlue]

I think I will have to stay with broker (a) or walk.

Apart from the ethical situation, I have no desire to run foul of a Greek registered company in Greece.

Ubergeekian asks what is wrong with the Greek payment system.

The 10% deposit is basically the brokers commission plus VAT. According to the sales leaflet, after this deposit is cleared in the Greek bank which can take five days, the boat is taken off the market and a process of collecting the paperwork, previous bills of sale, registration documentation, VAT papers, etc. begins. When the papers have been collected the whole lot must be notorised by a Greek notary at my (the buyers) expense (estimated at £150) This process is to take six weeks to complete when I will be given the sellers bank details. When the seller informs the Broker that the funds are cleared, then the boat is released to me and I can get the boat ready for launch in the Spring.

I think it is pretty obvious what is wrong with that system but let me give my reservations. The time frame is too long to complete the transaction after I have shelled out 10% because, in six weeks, too many things can go wrong betwixt cup and lip. Mainly because the broker has no idea that the 90% balance has been paid. He only has my word for it. What if the seller gets ill or worse during that six weeks or his estate is claimed for whatever reason while I feed the estate with the balance of his boat?

No No No After re-reading what I have just written my imagination paints a dozen scenes where I would be left with no money and no boat.

I have written to Broker (a) asking if the boat is Part 1 registered where I might get some protection. However I have just received an automated reply that the office is closed until January 3rd. No wonder Greece is in a mess. Here in Sweden Christmas eve and New Years day is a holiday otherwise back to work.

If the boat is not currently on part 1 register I will definitely walk and start the search again.

Thanks a million for all your help. It certainly crystallized the nasty effects of a Switch to Broker (b).

 

[dt4134]

If it were me I would consider trying to make an arrangement to have the boat sailed to and bought in another country. However even then, the Greek broker is likely to be miffed and would probably have enough aquitances & contacts for there to be a risk that things could be made awkward for you if you ever went back to Greece. It's likely to be a 'small world' amongst Greek brokers, harbour masters & port police.

By the way, not sure your comment about the brokers taking more time off at Christmas than a Swede would is entirely fair. I could tell you stories at length about trying to deal with even big Swedish companies whose staff had disappeared en masse for the whole of July.

 

[BurnitBlue]

By the way, not sure your comment about the brokers taking more time off at Christmas than a Swede would is entirely fair. I could tell you stories at length about trying to deal with even big Swedish companies whose staff had disappeared en masse for the whole of July.

That is true. It is supposed to be efficient for everyone to take their holidays at the same time. Efficient for the companies it certainly is.

When I first came to Sweden I was forced to take my annual holidays in July like everyone else. However, getting the car repaired or even a simple thing like buying a roll of film was difficult until August.

Things are a bit better nowadays with Polish workers etc from the EU and Mega Stores open every day until 2200.