Twists in a jib halyard

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rosamaldon

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Gilda - Crabber 24 MK1 Tollesbury. We've bought a late seventies model which is untidy but not much else wrong with it. Eventually found the jib hiding in a stern locker and set it up. Both the jib and the staysail have Wickham Martin furling. Despite there being at least two swivels in the rig the jib halyard seems to have three twists in it. If there were no swivels I could understand this but hey ho we live, sail and continue to be confused. I guess the answer is a new halyard when the mast comes down but not until the end of the season if I can help it. The swivels are free to turn and if I lower the sail until most of the halyard is on deck the twists are just further apart. Unfortunately the top twist jams against the block on the mast and stops the sail from being hoisted without sagging. We've been sailing with just the staysail but tacking can be a bit hit or miss. As this is the first gaff rig we've sailed there's obviously a lot to learn. Now this is going to sound silly, but is there a sensible way of getting the halyard to lose it's memory. I guess it must have been stored at some time with the swivel not working and the line twisted.
Many thanks
 
Put a swivel in the end of the halyard, between the halyard and wykeham swivel. Might help, or maybe cut a meter or two off the end of the halyard?
 
The recommended way of setting up a halyard with a W-M is to have it double-ended, passing through two blocks on the mast, so that the swivel is stretched at the foot of a triangle rather than a single load point.
 
I had the same issue on my Heard 28 - but this has a double ended halyard - I think any single ended halyard will twist no matter what?

I have to run the jib out and up every time, as the bowsprit retracts (and for economy of mooring reasons, we do retract it!), so I have had loads of practice and now have it pretty well sorted.

Ours is stored rolled-up and then the roll coiled into the bag. If it is in a coil it will definitely twist the halyard on the way up, so I get it straightened out - but still rolled up (hope that makes sense). For that reason it's usually easier to put it out on the traveller (or attach to bowsprit end if it's not on a traveller) then hoist it up as there isn't really enough room on deck.

I pretwist 3 or 4 turns on the furler drum (to ensure you can wrap it tight when it goes away) also use a bit of electrical tape on the swivel at the top of the sail to stop it turning on hoisting - it automatically breaks when the sail catches the wind.

I had loads of good advice (on the Gaffers and Luggers website forum) but this stands out:

"I lower and fix the bowsprit, then run out the furled jib, then hoist. The thing always unfurls at this stage as the furling line has no tension in it, but that is usually not a problem. Coming back in, I roll then drop the jib, run in the traveller and unhitch the jib. I then fasten the top swivel to the drum, but bridge the two with a piece of line that bypasses the swivels and takes the hoisting load. This avoids a lot of the twist problems as mentioned above. Run out the traveller and rehoist."

I was also advised to get Marlowbraid as it's less twisty (I dunno if they still make it but Kingfisher braid-on-braid seems like it might be equivalent)
 
re: Using a double block and a triangle?
At the moment the halyard goes up the mast to a single sheave block. Over the sheave and down to the W-M complete with freely rotating bronze swivel and then back up to the bitter end with is fastened to an eye in the bottom of the block. When the sail is hoisted the line coming over the top of the sheave and the line coming back up from the w-m twist over each other three times. Please forgive my ignorance but how would I have to change that to follow your suggestion?
Appreciate your time.
 
I have had the same problem on both the current boat and the last. In both case the halyard is set up with two blocks on the mast with 18" or so between them. However, the problem is that it twists up before the sail is high enough for the block spacing to have an effect.

Last time it happened it took me 20 minutes up the pole to untwist as it locked up completely.
I then managed to hoist the sail with one person on the halyard and another keeping a considerable downward pressure on the sail from as far forward (on the bowsprit) as possible. Not much use if I had to do it under way.
Wind Song has three strand halyard which you can understand twisting but the last boat had Marlowbraid which you would think wouldn't twist.

I too have checked the swivels are running freely but it is the halyard which is doing the twisting not the sail (I think).

The only advantage of the new Marlowbraid (apart from the stretch I suppose!) is that it is slippery so it might be possible to pull the sail down with a few twist in the line. This is definitely not possible with pseudo-trad hairy brown polyester stuff.

What is strange is that it doesn't seem to do it everytime /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

You can just about see the current set-up in this pic.
Wind Song
 
Hmm, that sounds the same 'triangle' set up as several other folks had and suggested to me as the solution.

I've had some luck 'pre-twisting' the halyard the opposite way before securing the top swivel with the tape (as described before).
 
There are three ways of creating the triangle.

1)You can have one end of the halyard permanently fastened aloft, then lead down through a block at the head of the sail attached to the swivel, back up to a block on the mast mounted at a different point, then down to deck.

2) Double-ended halyard, with the two blocks mounted at a vertical separation

3) Double ended halyard but with the blocks mounted each side of the mast, eg on the crosstrees cheeks, or dangling each side of a mast band.

I keep the sail rolled up, and hoist it in a tight roll, tensioning the roll if necessary to forstall twisting. Then run the traveller out on the bowsprit. Adjust the halyard as necessary to take up the tension but allowing the traveller to get right to the end.

That way the sail can't unwind until you let go of the roll and start to pull it out along the bowsprit, but it is quickly wound up again once the traveller reaches the end, if you have kept the winding line belayed.
 
Is it not simply a matter of "turning out" or untwisting the rope? I've had exactly the same problem which I resolve every time it happens simply by looking up the halliard as it runs up the mast to the first block to see which way I need to twist it. I can then stand on the foredeck and roll out the twisting in the halliard and by shaking the halliard upwards I can get the locking twists between the blocks to come out. The rope I'm using is braided which makes it easier to see the turns in the rope.
Hope you can follow this rather inexpert explanation and I hope too that this will help!
John
 
Twist in halyards seems to me to be set into the line by running it over blocks when loaded. Because classic boats use multi-part tackles, with a lot of line, which all has to be coiled, the problem is considerable. It may even be an important reason why winches have become so prevalent.

Some years ago I obtained a copy of "The Shell Book of Seamanship" of 1979 which showed how to coil lines with each loop turning the opposite way, so the twist in each loop compensates for the twist in the next. When one end is pulled out there is no nett twist in the line. Using it seems to overcome most problems of twist in lines.

The method is rather difficult to describe and needs practise but is well worth the effort IMHO.
 
Dunno if this is relevant but I always lap coil braided ropes. Otherwise we get twists in the mainsheet that look very similar to your halyard problem.

A lap coil is where you lay the loops alternately either side of your hand so that each twist is cancelled out. Works well for hose pipes too!
 
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