TV Tonight
- Thread starter tome
- Start date
duncan
Well-Known Member
promises to be a depressing programme I fear
Strathglass
Well-Known Member
Lot's of the programme hyped up to make viewing numbers
Some probably correct but the usual TV over sell.
IMHO of course.
Iain
Some probably correct but the usual TV over sell.
IMHO of course.
Iain
ShipsWoofy
Well-Known Member
I found it painful to watch personally.
The program seemed to desire a nanny state where nanny coastguard will hold your hand and you will always be no more than 2 minutes from a beach patrol.
Of all the coast guards I have ever been in contact with I have found them professional and highly proficient. The program was as said hyped and I thought pathetically trying to make a point that I did not see as being there.
The people who unfortunately died made many mistakes and the final story about the father son in a small angling boat who left in winter in the middle of the night, a freezing night from accounts with only a mobile telephone to call for help...well.... is this really a CG problem. The MCA continually request people do not rely on mobile telephones for the reason basically outlined in the program.
To be honest, I am annoyed that the BBC broadcast such a ropey program.
The program seemed to desire a nanny state where nanny coastguard will hold your hand and you will always be no more than 2 minutes from a beach patrol.
Of all the coast guards I have ever been in contact with I have found them professional and highly proficient. The program was as said hyped and I thought pathetically trying to make a point that I did not see as being there.
The people who unfortunately died made many mistakes and the final story about the father son in a small angling boat who left in winter in the middle of the night, a freezing night from accounts with only a mobile telephone to call for help...well.... is this really a CG problem. The MCA continually request people do not rely on mobile telephones for the reason basically outlined in the program.
To be honest, I am annoyed that the BBC broadcast such a ropey program.
david_bagshaw
Well-Known Member
Feel sorry for the coast guard, of course this is the first stage of the user pays! more regulation & costs I fear.
G
Guest
Guest
I haven't seen it, and I don't have a telly. But last time I watched telly I watched a documentary - and was astounded at how incompetently bad the reporting was. The programme was called something like "Who stole the baycity roller's millions". I was really appalled at the stupidity of the report, and the fact that in order to make a sensational story they avoided adressing even the most basic questions. It depresses me that people who obviously are only interested in entertaining, with absolutely no interest in representing the truth, can have such influence over so many millions of minds.
Appalled of Krakow.
Disclaimer: I have no connection with anyone who stole the Bay City Rollers' millions - unfortunately
Appalled of Krakow.
Disclaimer: I have no connection with anyone who stole the Bay City Rollers' millions - unfortunately
iangrant
Well-Known Member
painful..
I thought the top cg man did a good job on the interviewer!! took the wind out of her sails..
ian
I thought the top cg man did a good job on the interviewer!! took the wind out of her sails..
ian
tome
Well-Known Member
Never watched it myself
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
the father son in a small angling boat who left in winter in the middle of the night, a freezing night with only a mobile telephone to call for help...
[/ QUOTE ] I really didn't like the continual assumption that someone is responsible for the safety of Joe Public.
Err...not Joe Public of course.
Nobody these days seems to be willing to take responsibility for themselves.
the father son in a small angling boat who left in winter in the middle of the night, a freezing night with only a mobile telephone to call for help...
[/ QUOTE ] I really didn't like the continual assumption that someone is responsible for the safety of Joe Public.
Err...not Joe Public of course.
Nobody these days seems to be willing to take responsibility for themselves.
Sgeir
Well-Known Member
I did not watch the programme, but was painfully aware of the Loch Ryan accident referred to in the the publicity pre-blurb, having heard the CG talk on Ch16 at that time. The whole incident must have been very traumatic to so many people.
The publicity from the BBC was supposedly about the failings of the CG. The MAIB Report did show up the problems of computer backup when incorrect co-ordinates were recorded, but more importantly revealed how difficult it was to correct a simple input error after it had been entered (so who hasn't entered a wrong GPS waypoint?).
An objective reading of the MAIB Report would suggest that other issues were very significant in that tragedy.
The publicity blurb smacked of cheap television.
The publicity from the BBC was supposedly about the failings of the CG. The MAIB Report did show up the problems of computer backup when incorrect co-ordinates were recorded, but more importantly revealed how difficult it was to correct a simple input error after it had been entered (so who hasn't entered a wrong GPS waypoint?).
An objective reading of the MAIB Report would suggest that other issues were very significant in that tragedy.
The publicity blurb smacked of cheap television.
TheBoatman
Well-Known Member
I thought!
The programme showed many sides of the arguement. On one side it's very easy to take a case where someone has lost their life and highlight the mistakes made by HMCG and blame them. On another, the comments recieved from CG employees was, to say the least, damming. Can't you just see it where manning levels are driven by central government budgets. How many CG stations have been closed down because of costs?
Yes the CG spokesman is right to say that they don't cause accidents only respond to them, but then when they get the co-ordinates wrong and don't get to the casualty for 40 mins, thats not right either. He struggled when confronted with the fact that failed operators were manning stations because of lack of staffing levels.
IMHO it's a case of HMGC cutting back to a level whereby safety is now compromised, even the select committee had to admit that?
What also came out of the programme for me was the fact that so many people take to the water with little or no experience and think that a mobile is all they need to keep them safe? /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
The programme showed many sides of the arguement. On one side it's very easy to take a case where someone has lost their life and highlight the mistakes made by HMCG and blame them. On another, the comments recieved from CG employees was, to say the least, damming. Can't you just see it where manning levels are driven by central government budgets. How many CG stations have been closed down because of costs?
Yes the CG spokesman is right to say that they don't cause accidents only respond to them, but then when they get the co-ordinates wrong and don't get to the casualty for 40 mins, thats not right either. He struggled when confronted with the fact that failed operators were manning stations because of lack of staffing levels.
IMHO it's a case of HMGC cutting back to a level whereby safety is now compromised, even the select committee had to admit that?
What also came out of the programme for me was the fact that so many people take to the water with little or no experience and think that a mobile is all they need to keep them safe? /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
JonBrooks
Well-Known Member
Very painful to watch!
I felt it was very one sided.
There was no look into the standards of those using the sea. Only those who are there to pick up the bits after it all goes wrong.
There is a huge number of people who go to sea every day.
Most have an idea about safety and do all they can to ensure thier safety and the safety of the others with them.
There is also a huge number that don't!
Like someone already said, the first thoughts for safety have to come from those going to sea.
Both the MCA and RNLI do what they can to educate but if you decide not to listen what can they do?
Whislt no one wants to see the sea become restricted but do we need to insist on formal trainig before you can take a boat to sea?
Is this a way to cut the loss of life?
You have to have basic trainig to ride a 50cc scooter but to take a 250hp boat to sea......nothing.
I work on the local council patrol boat at weekends.
Whilst on the water we are an additional resource for the CoastGuard.
We can and do get tasked to "jobs" by them.
As an average about one a weekend.
I have been doing this since Easter, some of the things I have seen make me shudder!
We try, in the nicest possible way, to advise on safety.
Sometimes it is taken well sometimes not!
As a powerboat instructor maybe I am a tad anal when it comes to safety, maybe not.
As a SRC Assessor I feel that a radio is a must.
All MCA centres, RNLI boats (larger type), SAR choppers get and instant bearing when you call on Ch16.
Mobile phones, at sea, can be very hard and time consuming to trace.
Maybe "Real Story" should come out with us or someone like us one weekend and see the lack of knowledge and stupity that exist.
The sea is a great place to play and have fun but if you are ill prepared it will jump up and bite you on the bum when you least expect it!
All IMHO
Regards
I felt it was very one sided.
There was no look into the standards of those using the sea. Only those who are there to pick up the bits after it all goes wrong.
There is a huge number of people who go to sea every day.
Most have an idea about safety and do all they can to ensure thier safety and the safety of the others with them.
There is also a huge number that don't!
Like someone already said, the first thoughts for safety have to come from those going to sea.
Both the MCA and RNLI do what they can to educate but if you decide not to listen what can they do?
Whislt no one wants to see the sea become restricted but do we need to insist on formal trainig before you can take a boat to sea?
Is this a way to cut the loss of life?
You have to have basic trainig to ride a 50cc scooter but to take a 250hp boat to sea......nothing.
I work on the local council patrol boat at weekends.
Whilst on the water we are an additional resource for the CoastGuard.
We can and do get tasked to "jobs" by them.
As an average about one a weekend.
I have been doing this since Easter, some of the things I have seen make me shudder!
We try, in the nicest possible way, to advise on safety.
Sometimes it is taken well sometimes not!
As a powerboat instructor maybe I am a tad anal when it comes to safety, maybe not.
As a SRC Assessor I feel that a radio is a must.
All MCA centres, RNLI boats (larger type), SAR choppers get and instant bearing when you call on Ch16.
Mobile phones, at sea, can be very hard and time consuming to trace.
Maybe "Real Story" should come out with us or someone like us one weekend and see the lack of knowledge and stupity that exist.
The sea is a great place to play and have fun but if you are ill prepared it will jump up and bite you on the bum when you least expect it!
All IMHO
Regards
ShipsWoofy
Well-Known Member
Interesting that you mention basic training. My thoughts on this go back and forth. The main things that bother me about compulsory training is ;
Over confidence by a new skipper, who has a certificate to prove his competence at sea.
Age restrictions, many young teens are exceptionally confident, more than many adults, I can see a situation where they will not be allowed to take a boat to sea.
What this will lead to, licencing, annual fees, more tax - oh but it will....
I have watched in awe some of the small trailer boats launch from Pwllheli. Guys yanking outboards for 20 minutes before they finally burst into life and still take the family to sea. Boats which look like they should have disappeared on the last November 5th bonfire.
But, this is a minority, maybe 1%. You must also share that statistic from your observations Jon. I do not believe that a compulsory scheme will mop these people up anyway.
I digress. Having just read the MIAB report for the Lock Ryan incident, I believe the guys were unfortunately dead before the coastguard was informed by the yacht. It made harrowing reading, yet, there was a competent skipper on board. From the description, the family friend would have probably been able to easily obtain a licence (as discussed above) to go to sea.
There is a finite amount of nagging you can do, but at the end of the day some people will never do all they can to look after themselves. Like the British workforce, we cut corners, we see what we can get away with.
And we are mean with money when it comes to safety equipment.
finished!
Over confidence by a new skipper, who has a certificate to prove his competence at sea.
Age restrictions, many young teens are exceptionally confident, more than many adults, I can see a situation where they will not be allowed to take a boat to sea.
What this will lead to, licencing, annual fees, more tax - oh but it will....
I have watched in awe some of the small trailer boats launch from Pwllheli. Guys yanking outboards for 20 minutes before they finally burst into life and still take the family to sea. Boats which look like they should have disappeared on the last November 5th bonfire.
But, this is a minority, maybe 1%. You must also share that statistic from your observations Jon. I do not believe that a compulsory scheme will mop these people up anyway.
I digress. Having just read the MIAB report for the Lock Ryan incident, I believe the guys were unfortunately dead before the coastguard was informed by the yacht. It made harrowing reading, yet, there was a competent skipper on board. From the description, the family friend would have probably been able to easily obtain a licence (as discussed above) to go to sea.
There is a finite amount of nagging you can do, but at the end of the day some people will never do all they can to look after themselves. Like the British workforce, we cut corners, we see what we can get away with.
And we are mean with money when it comes to safety equipment.
finished!
JonBrooks
Well-Known Member
Ships
I would agree that those who are lacking are in the minority.
Not sure of % though.
Maybe a task for my next few shifts.
Would there have to be annual fee's?
Say everyone in a powercraft had to do a Level II course, all on jet ski's had to do the PWC and so on, would it not just be a case of do the course?
Like the driving test?
Does everyone who passes their driving test get over confident? yes there will be a few!
A large number of launch site ask for insurance and bits so asking to see the boating qualli's could be added.
Marina's etc could do the same.
People, like our patrol boat, could ask to see this info like a ships radio licence.
I am just thinking out loud.
I am not sure, and I not sure anyone else is, what the right answer is here.
Do we want the MCA to become like their counter parts in the USA?
I agree 110% about being tight when it comes to safety in a very large number of cases there are also those who think its money well spent.
Any loss of life or injury is very very sad.
I wish that was more that could be done just not sure, as you say it will or could be.
Regards
I would agree that those who are lacking are in the minority.
Not sure of % though.
Maybe a task for my next few shifts.
Would there have to be annual fee's?
Say everyone in a powercraft had to do a Level II course, all on jet ski's had to do the PWC and so on, would it not just be a case of do the course?
Like the driving test?
Does everyone who passes their driving test get over confident? yes there will be a few!
A large number of launch site ask for insurance and bits so asking to see the boating qualli's could be added.
Marina's etc could do the same.
People, like our patrol boat, could ask to see this info like a ships radio licence.
I am just thinking out loud.
I am not sure, and I not sure anyone else is, what the right answer is here.
Do we want the MCA to become like their counter parts in the USA?
I agree 110% about being tight when it comes to safety in a very large number of cases there are also those who think its money well spent.
Any loss of life or injury is very very sad.
I wish that was more that could be done just not sure, as you say it will or could be.
Regards
Cornishman
Well-Known Member
Re: I thought!
Although I am in no way a TV producer I thought that the salient points could have been much better presented. I got the impression that the Chief Coastguard was being interviewed by a rooky regional reporter and that somebody like one of the Dimblebys might have done a much better job.
It worries me that the watch manager I next speak to might be an inexperienced and failed junior. I think we should be able to expect better than that.
Although I am in no way a TV producer I thought that the salient points could have been much better presented. I got the impression that the Chief Coastguard was being interviewed by a rooky regional reporter and that somebody like one of the Dimblebys might have done a much better job.
It worries me that the watch manager I next speak to might be an inexperienced and failed junior. I think we should be able to expect better than that.
cliff
Well-Known Member
Re: I thought!
The programme was a farce.
Too many questions were left unasked such as:
In the Loch Ryan incident what happened to the yacht that made the May Day relay? Did the skipper of that boat render any assistance to the other boat or simply make the call then go on his merry way? Loch Ryan is not that wide so even in a sailing boat 10 to 15 mins would see one across the loch.
How many lives were saved by the rescue services in 2004? - what was the call out figure? 98.5% within 20 mins? - can't remember now but I do remember it sounded impressive.
To blame the CG for getting the coordinates wrong and blame this on under-manning is ludicrous. Even with a full compliment of personnel mistakes can happen.
To go out in the middle of winter in an open boat with only a mobile phone for communications is nothing short of an accident looking to happen.
When my kids take the tender to "go exploring" they take the hand held radio and a emergency pack of hand flares, smoke and rockets - just in case. (oh yes also spare fuel for the OB and a tool kit with spare plugs, shear pins and emergency starter cord all of which they know how to fit / use) Simple safety precautions and the kids enjoy their "play time"
While I sympathize with those left behind, it is unrealistic for anyone to act irresponsibly then expect the CG or rescue services to come immediately and pick up the pieces.
Unfortunately we are living in a "blame someone else" society or nanny state. It is time Joe public took responsibility for his (or her) own actions.
----------
“Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity”
Skype id:cliffillupo
The programme was a farce.
Too many questions were left unasked such as:
In the Loch Ryan incident what happened to the yacht that made the May Day relay? Did the skipper of that boat render any assistance to the other boat or simply make the call then go on his merry way? Loch Ryan is not that wide so even in a sailing boat 10 to 15 mins would see one across the loch.
How many lives were saved by the rescue services in 2004? - what was the call out figure? 98.5% within 20 mins? - can't remember now but I do remember it sounded impressive.
To blame the CG for getting the coordinates wrong and blame this on under-manning is ludicrous. Even with a full compliment of personnel mistakes can happen.
To go out in the middle of winter in an open boat with only a mobile phone for communications is nothing short of an accident looking to happen.
When my kids take the tender to "go exploring" they take the hand held radio and a emergency pack of hand flares, smoke and rockets - just in case. (oh yes also spare fuel for the OB and a tool kit with spare plugs, shear pins and emergency starter cord all of which they know how to fit / use) Simple safety precautions and the kids enjoy their "play time"
While I sympathize with those left behind, it is unrealistic for anyone to act irresponsibly then expect the CG or rescue services to come immediately and pick up the pieces.
Unfortunately we are living in a "blame someone else" society or nanny state. It is time Joe public took responsibility for his (or her) own actions.
----------
Skype id:cliffillupo
Sans Bateau
Well-Known Member
Re: I thought!
The program was a good opportunity for the BBC to show what a great job that the CG do, every day. However, as we are a country that likes to blame people and ‘expose’ inadequacies’ that would have not been dramatic TV.
I am sure that there are some problems that need to be addressed in the CG, in what large organisation is there not? If you dig deep enough it was easy for the TV producers to find, what was, two or three people to show the worst side of the CG.
It was, as is always, tragic when life is lost. But why should a third party, who has no control over the expertise, preparation or the suitability and number of persons in a vessel, be held responsible? Were these fishing trips untypical? Small boats overloaded, poor safety and communication equipment is a feature of every stretch of water around the country. All too often, an accident waiting to happen. For that matter, how often to these accidents happen and the CG, at their best, bring about a successful rescue?
No, don’t knock the CG. I for one have listened to their management of more than enough May Day incidents to know that they are a truly professional organisation.
The program was a good opportunity for the BBC to show what a great job that the CG do, every day. However, as we are a country that likes to blame people and ‘expose’ inadequacies’ that would have not been dramatic TV.
I am sure that there are some problems that need to be addressed in the CG, in what large organisation is there not? If you dig deep enough it was easy for the TV producers to find, what was, two or three people to show the worst side of the CG.
It was, as is always, tragic when life is lost. But why should a third party, who has no control over the expertise, preparation or the suitability and number of persons in a vessel, be held responsible? Were these fishing trips untypical? Small boats overloaded, poor safety and communication equipment is a feature of every stretch of water around the country. All too often, an accident waiting to happen. For that matter, how often to these accidents happen and the CG, at their best, bring about a successful rescue?
No, don’t knock the CG. I for one have listened to their management of more than enough May Day incidents to know that they are a truly professional organisation.
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
Entirely agree. It was a trial by television with the usual one-sided evidence and attempted to lynch the coastguard for a whole series of things that weren't their responsibility.
Why didn't the producers have a go at the ferry operating at high speed in confined waters that was the direct cause of 3 drownings?
The lack of lifeguards on beaches out of season isn't down to them.
To expect them to launch a major SAR operation on the basis of every garbled phone call would need 10 times the resources.
Of course all the victims want someone to blame and someone has to be blamed so they can have "closure". The rules of the blame game are that the victim is always innocent, even if they go to sea without basic safety equipment.
It harks back to the Hillsborough disaster - the media wade into the people who try to sort out the mess and never a word about those who actually caused it - in that case the ones who did the pushing.
Why didn't the producers have a go at the ferry operating at high speed in confined waters that was the direct cause of 3 drownings?
The lack of lifeguards on beaches out of season isn't down to them.
To expect them to launch a major SAR operation on the basis of every garbled phone call would need 10 times the resources.
Of course all the victims want someone to blame and someone has to be blamed so they can have "closure". The rules of the blame game are that the victim is always innocent, even if they go to sea without basic safety equipment.
It harks back to the Hillsborough disaster - the media wade into the people who try to sort out the mess and never a word about those who actually caused it - in that case the ones who did the pushing.
ParaHandy
Well-Known Member
when the operations director of MCA announced the closure of several scottish CG stations several years ago, he nearly was lynched. His argument then was that the sophisticated, integrated, CG systems would permit huge areas of the west coast to be covered with fewer stations (bear in mind that Loch Ryan is >100m as the crow flies from Clyde CG). The reliance on such systems was questioned and his reply was that a land line could be used if this technology failed which, rather condescending reply, was greeted with derision as most have experienced how fragile telephone lines can be up there. Nobody was happy over this but neither could anybody refute the MCA's argument that the risk analysis proved that the remaining stations had the capacity. The quite extraordinary absenteeism at Clyde CG blew this away.
He, the Ops Director, came over as a rather arrogant individual and many have long memories. This incident demonstrates the point made then. The senior management of the MCA failed to manage. Absenteeism isn't difficult to manage.
The select committee as well as chastising the MCA for, in effect, lying about the appropriateness of their manning levels also asked whether a simple audit had been conducted of service levels and efficiency after the closures. They hadn't done so.
Again the MAIB took a swipe at watch-keeping standards on commercial shipping. It wasn't the wash so much, as the fact that 7 ferries passed within 400-800metres of the tragedy but all watch keepers were looking ahead which in itself indicates they are travelling too fast.
He, the Ops Director, came over as a rather arrogant individual and many have long memories. This incident demonstrates the point made then. The senior management of the MCA failed to manage. Absenteeism isn't difficult to manage.
The select committee as well as chastising the MCA for, in effect, lying about the appropriateness of their manning levels also asked whether a simple audit had been conducted of service levels and efficiency after the closures. They hadn't done so.
Again the MAIB took a swipe at watch-keeping standards on commercial shipping. It wasn't the wash so much, as the fact that 7 ferries passed within 400-800metres of the tragedy but all watch keepers were looking ahead which in itself indicates they are travelling too fast.
