Turning to the Dark Side

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If you sailed your average speed in the direction you want to go in would be 2-3 knots
( I think )

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Not if you only want to sail off the wind ... then it would be much higher .....
 
I think Daka is right on this one. Sure a 50ft princess has a biggish engine room but it still has LOADS more living space than a 50foot AWB. So I think Daka is right when he says you need to compare a 40 foot (say) mobo with a 50 foot (say) yot

I'd even take it further. I've owned and chartered plenty of AWBs and I'd say you need to get well above 50feet in a sailboat to get an outside space where it's not just six adults sitting around the same cockpit with one lunch table, foldaway camping style. You need an 80foot sailboat to compare with a 60foot mobo, in terms of loafing and lunching spaces. Or a sailing cat.
 
I'd agree with that jfm.... there is no doubt that a mobo has more space generally for a similar LOA.....

IMHO, Its just not possible to compare the two variants of our beloved hobby in reality.... they are just completely different...

The OP for example talked about long range travelling.... very difficult in a mobo unless you go for a very specific type of vessel optimised for long distance...

On the flip side, what sailboat can nip across to Cherbourg from the Solent for lunch and back the same day?

I think the whole cost thing is a red herring.... any one of us could construct a valid argument for our preferred option being the most economical by carefully selecting the criteria of distance, speed, service costs, space, berthing costs, and even what we are measuring eg time afloat or distance travelled....

So instead of 'competing' with one another, how about we enjoy our differences as a signs of a varied and interesting grouping of people?
 
Shame on me but, since you started this thread, I thought I'd admit to owning a little sailboat as well as One Away, It's a Foxcub in fact, I haven't even given it a name, 18ft of fun that doesn't cost the earth that I can use when it's too windy for the motor boat. except for really bad weather I can go on the water most days of the year.

just a thought, having both (motor and sail) is that a bit like cross dressing? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

more importantly does it make me a traitor? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
Nah, not a Traitor or X dresser, merely one who enjoys the seductive siren calls of the light side, climbing towards the light- 'feel the Force, let it flow through you and guide your actions, Luke'- Ooops, an Obi-Wan moment!

Thing about a B- great lump of metal under you is that you use the sea in a wider spectrum of weather than a mobo. But on the other hand,
a mobo is wearing their white overalls and passing the canapes & Chardonnay, while a raggie is still enjoying a bracing beat to windward with only 8 hours before reaching the same port(all the canapes will be gone!).
Chaque'un a son gout I say, so long as I'm given a wide berth whilst coaxing an extra 0.000012% of a knot from my 16 yr old main sail /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
I appreciate your dilemma about moving over to sail but not wanting to live in the bowels of a GRP cave. Unfortunately there aren't many options on that budget the deck saloon concept is more on the newer more expensive boats. More recently Moody launched the DS 45 which is really what you are looking for but costs over £300, its a perfect balance between sail and power concepts. The Oysters, Swans and Sweden yachts etc have pushed the bounds of visibility on sailing yachts but again they are expensive. Good luck though sounds like an adventure to look forward to!
 
Bless you Daka, you really want to believe all that nonsense don't you?
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I don't need a marina cos I can dry out on a mooring, I use less than 50quids worth of fuel a year and sails outlast engines by a factor of 2:1 at least, and then they cost half as much to replace. OK you get there quickly in a mobo, but the cost (and not just in money) is outrageous. Silence is golden, the challenge of getting the best out of the conditions is very rewarding & the knowledge that your vessel is much more seaworthy than most equivalent mobos is also very satisfying. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
You won't convince me to change until I am so old and unfit that I have to downgrade to a mobo to stay afloat. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
I'll just have to add to this ...

I've got a number of different size vessels - the one I was sailing today is a radio controlled laser ... great little boat, and you don't even get your feet wet ... anyhoo ... along comes joe public and plops his little radio controlled boat on the pond (no problem with radio crossover) ... and blasts off 40' away from the side, round the buoy and back again, takes about 10 seconds ... and does it again another few times - then gets out of radio contact, but runs round the pond until it gets back in control and within 5 minutes they're packed up and gone ... meanwhile, we finish our coffee, put the boats back on the water again and start racing - we're there for 3 hours and they're there for 5 minutes ... I just can't see the "fun" in that - there is no challenge to it - point the boat, open the throttle and away you go ...
there was also another RC sailing yacht - and he was there for a good hour playing around on the outskirts of the pond - young lad with his father - ok - they didn't cover much distance and the sails where definately not set right, but it lasted a darn site longer!!

I think mobo/sail really does come down to lifestyle choice - are you going out to get somewhere or are you going out to enjoy being out - if the former then you're probably best off with a mobo, if the later then you are well suited to a sailboat ... of course, you can still do both with either
 
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sail boat 30ft costs £5000 average speed in direction required 3 knots
100 hours covers 300 nm = £16.66 per mile

mobo costs £5000
average 10 knots ( 5 harbour, 25 cruise) + 500 gallons fuel @ £1400 total £6400
1000 miles = £ 6.40 per mile

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Or, using my actual figures for 2008 in a 32' saily boat
250hrs engine, log 3500nm (= 14kt average!) for 167 litres (37 gallons) of red (and most of that was for the heater, honest!), say £100. Then add about £600 for depreciation of sails, making £700.

DAKA would cover about 500nm for the same money and 14 times the carbon footprint.
 
AS I said on this occasion I have given a lot of thought to this.

I fear many posters who sail have not given the same amount of thought.

Your figure also add weight to my argument.

I note you have not actually looked at anything other than fuel.

Now the original poster berths in Gostport.

If we use your 32 ft boat as an example this is the actual cost per mile

fuel £100
sails £600
berth £6000

£6700 / 3500 miles = £1.90 ppm

Now we need to add 40% for the zig zag effect.
Alright you have covered 3500 nm but how many times were you actually heading away from your intended destination !

32ft sail cost £2.68 per mile.



28ft mobo would have the same space

berth £4000
fuel £5169
= £9169 / 3500

Power £2.60 per mile.

Agreed once retired and covering 3500 nm a year the figures get close.

This is still rough on my part but my original point is still very relevant

Sail is not a free pass time and the idea that anyone can retire and switch to sail could be a false economy and anyone thinking of doing it needs to put pen to paper, and take their wife to study usable accommodation .

Again I state these are rough calculations, I was more thorough with my detailed plan that posted a few months back.

Of course looking at the raw data the mobo appears to have an anual running cost of £9169
against the sail £6700

However remember the sail boat wasted many miles heading in the wrong direction.
in truth the mobo doesnt have to go 3500 nm to do the same tour.
when you knock the 40% zig zag factor off the mobo again becomes cheaper at £ 5501 /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Fully agree with you DAKA

But there are some very important other factors which arent financially related. If the weather suddenly closes in, you can make a run for it in a mobo.

Whenever I've been sailing, you can see where you want to get to - it just takes soooo long to get there.

So from the Solent its Alderney for lunch and Guernsey for supper - do that in a sailing boat!!!
 
Oh, come on Daka - adding cost for tacking is clutching at straws! Surprisingly, the wind is not always on the nose and most of my sailing is in relatively straight lines but even when the wind is contrary I get great pleasure out of sailing the boat. Now if you work it out in pennies/hour a saily boat wins with no contest and I guess that comes back to enjoying the trip v. enjoying arriving somewhere. I enjoy both and am lucky I have the time to do so.
 
Can we correct your prices please - Gosport Premier ...

32'er = £4,409.78pa

and a 28'er ... £4,409.78 !!

So - you can forget the price difference in berthing then!!
 
If you plan to actually sit on thing for hours on end, it needs to be wide for stability, which means 100ft long minimum, or a cat, Being a tightwad, i took the cat option. I have just watched a princess V65 come ashore (orient bay, st martin) jump to tender asap for lunch, back on boat and make headway asap. This is ok for a day trip, no good for living on board days at a time.

Forget replacing sails by the way - the means of propulsion is a joint effort between weedy longlife eengines and bombproof sails.

Stingo told me all about cat stability for living aboard weeks at a time, btw, and he was right. On other boats tyou unaccountably wake up of get up middle of the night, whereas on a cat at anchor you sleep through, every nite.
 
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Can we correct your prices please - Gosport Premier ...

32'er = £4,409.78pa

and a 28'er ... £4,409.78 !!



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Yes, please feel free to do so /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

What did you find when you factor in the above, the mobo becomes 13p a mile more ?
Less the 40% zig zag = 7p per mile more !
 
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Oh, come on Daka - adding cost for tacking is clutching at straws! Surprisingly, the wind is not always on the nose

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Not always on the nose, that would be silly !

The wind is not the only reason to tack is it.

In Chichester harbour guide the HM recommends sailing boats tack all the way out the channels in order to work the current, that will make some interesting seamanship to watch /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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The wind is not the only reason to tack is it.

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Um, yes it is! If you can sail free to get where you are going (and that includes getting into or out of the tide), why would you tack? I suppose one might tack to get in the way of certain mobos just to exercise saily boat rights under IRPCS, but that would be churlish.
 
Re: Turning to the Dark SideNow, if I had to choose a certain Mobo tom

Corky, what an interesting thread You have started.

I have read it all with interest.
Not that I am thinking of going Raggie.
I have had 2 'sails' in My life.
Thanks to Searush and Misterg.

'Sails' is in commas for a reason.
Both times the wind wasn't right apparently!

Two different types of saily thing with two experienced an interesting, capable sailormen.

Two very brief samples of the Dark Side!

The attraction to sail is obvious.

No 'list' (oops, scuse pun!) needed to itemise the pleasures of the hobby/sport.

What we all need is one of each craft.
Plus the time and money to enjoy both.

Last year I was dead lucky.
Must av helmed at least 30 different mobos.
Cos of training, handovers and a couple or three delivery jobs etc.

Saturday I had to test a RIB.
Tough I know but someone has to do it!

Even though I just mucked about it was nice.

I can see there is more art and craft in sailing than moboing.

Trouble is time management.

The bloody things take so long to get somewhere /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
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