Trustworthy broker in Italy to arrange the deal

[Brunan]

Hi!

I'm looking in to buy my first boat from Italy (I have bought several from France before) and have found a boat I'm interested in. It's right now on the market by the owner. I'm looking for any contacts of brokers that you have good experience of that I can engage in the deal and sort out the language barrier with the owner. Any suggestions would be highly appreciated.

BR Krister

 

[mcanderson]

What has happened to your Bavaria??

 

[Whitelighter]

I can give you a list of ones to avoid...

 

[MapisM]

I can point you to a very trustworthy one, who btw used to be one of the most respected "old" Italian boatbuilders, before things went pear shaped with the financial meltdown. It's fair to say that he forgot more about boats than any other broker on planet Earth will ever know.
But if you are directly in touch with the owner, involving a broker means increasing your costs significantly.
I mean, aside from the fact that in IT the broker commissions are shared between the seller and the buyer, at the end of the day it's something that goes on top of the money which the seller is expecting to get, so ultimately it's always the buyer who pays the bill...
Besides, it also depends on where the boat is located, to some extent - though the chap I'm talking about is available to travel, for a genuine deal.
All that said, if it's just a matter of translating some emails or make a couple of phone calls, my Italian is rather passable - feel free to ask...

 

[Elessar]

Hi!

I'm looking in to buy my first boat from Italy (I have bought several from France before) and have found a boat I'm interested in. It's right now on the market by the owner. I'm looking for any contacts of brokers that you have good experience of that I can engage in the deal and sort out the language barrier with the owner. Any suggestions would be highly appreciated.

BR Krister

A surveyor I trust won’t go to Italy.

And whitelighter must be poorly given how polite he was about buying in Italy.

 

[Brunan]

What has happened to your Bavaria??

It's up for sale. As always - looking for something bigger

I can give you a list of ones to avoid...

All tips appreciated. I'm dealing in the south of Italy where there are even more sketchy brokers active.

I can point you to a very trustworthy one, who btw used to be one of the most respected "old" Italian boatbuilders, before things went pear shaped with the financial meltdown. It's fair to say that he forgot more about boats than any other broker on planet Earth will ever know.
But if you are directly in touch with the owner, involving a broker means increasing your costs significantly.
I mean, aside from the fact that in IT the broker commissions are shared between the seller and the buyer, at the end of the day it's something that goes on top of the money which the seller is expecting to get, so ultimately it's always the buyer who pays the bill...
Besides, it also depends on where the boat is located, to some extent - though the chap I'm talking about is available to travel, for a genuine deal.
All that said, if it's just a matter of translating some emails or make a couple of phone calls, my Italian is rather passable - feel free to ask...

Thank you for the offer. I have discussed quite a lot with the current broker now involved and I believe I'm ready to go to Italy and have a look to start with.

 

[MapisM]

Thank you for the offer

U R welcome, but I'm not sure if you mean that you could use some help or not.
If yes, just drop me a pm - possibly with your mailbox, just to avoid being restricted by the cumbersome forum pm system. :encouragement:

 

[About Time]

Hi,

I was looking at a boat in the Slovenia and had this Italian surveyor help me do a survey. I was close to buying the boat but after checking for osmosis he detected some blisters so deal cancelled. http://www.rebullasurveyors.it/ENGLISH/indexEN.html


One thing to keep in mind.... I understand that boats earlier than 2000 tend to have another layup in construction so osmosis is a real problem if boat stays in water year round and never dry out. I believe the layup was changed ard. 2000 as today you rarely see osmosis anymore. I tell you this as I do not know the boat you will be buying. Also upon checking for osmosis … you need to pull the boat out of water and let it 'dry' for 3-4 days before you check it... If you look at it once it comes out of the water you will not detect the osmosis. Only after the 3-4 days of 'drying' the blisters will come out.

All the best with the possible purchase.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

A surveyor I trust won’t go to Italy.

And whitelighter must be poorly given how polite he was about buying in Italy.

Well I bought my last 2 boats in Italy and I managed to survive without a horse's head appearing in my bed one morning so if I can do it, anyone can

As to the OP's question, I used the UK broker, Mike Newton-Woof of Ventura, as an intermediary. Being the UK Ferretti dealer, he has loads of experience in dealing with Italians and I'm sure he'd be glad to help anybody buy a boat there. And he's not wearing cement shoes either so I guess he must know what he's doing

 

[Portofino]

Agree with Mike , it’s straight forward ,simple and easy
I particularly like the blue book reg system if it’s Italian , bit like your U.K. car V5 plus , and is a clear indication of who owns it , individuals or Co,s .
From that the tax status is transparent.
They give you a temp cover note type of thing after the broker goes to port office to act the change of ownership- he does the form work and collects the various signatures etc .

You keep the original blue book and the new temp cert on the boat at all times , and when the boats been deported / moved out of Italy , then go through a simple dereg process, they call it “ irradiation of the flag “
There’s a few fees to pay as is the way along the process .

Bureaucracy for this - boat transactions , they imho have got it right .
Although they reg them in each port authority hence the letters like GE or Roma etc .
Suppose it creates jobs .
Streamlining it you could have a central agency like Swansea for cars or Cardiff for boats ,buts that’s not the Italian way efficiency

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Agree with Mike , it’s straight forward ,simple and easy
I particularly like the blue book reg system if it’s Italian , bit like your U.K. car V5 plus , and is a clear indication of who owns it , individuals or Co,s .
From that the tax status is transparent.
They give you a temp cover note type of thing after the broker goes to port office to act the change of ownership- he does the form work and collects the various signatures etc .

You keep the original blue book and the new temp cert on the boat at all times , and when the boats been deported / moved out of Italy , then go through a simple dereg process, they call it “ irradiation of the flag “
There’s a few fees to pay as is the way along the process .

Bureaucracy for this - boat transactions , they imho have got it right .
Although they reg them in each port authority hence the letters like GE or Roma etc .
Suppose it creates jobs .
Streamlining it you could have a central agency like Swansea for cars or Cardiff for boats ,buts that’s not the Italian way efficiency

This system is long, and I used it once for a client and got stuck with waiting for a deletion for four months.

Anyway once the boat is accepted from yourself (after surveys etc) best system is to send original, and request for deletion letter to the Italian register of the vessel.
You start your Prov registry after this, sign a bill of sale (for youself) and wait for Nulla Osta (Permission to delete).
The Nulla Osta is a letter which apart Perm to delete will tell you the boat with Nos XGEXXXXD has no debt to the state or any encumbrances.
Nulla Osta takes about one month to come. I was doing them in two weeks from 2015 to 17 but of four I did this year they all took about a month.
After that you need to go and do an Act of Sale infront of Notary (2000 Euros) cost or a Goverment office (1000 euro cost).
There is 800 EUROS government stamps (tax) in this and this needs to be in Italian.

When you do this then you wait for Deletion Ceriticate which takes from one to two months the most.

 

[MapisM]

sign a bill of sale (for youself) and wait for Nulla Osta

Actually, that's a bit of a chicken or egg situation, W.
In principle, before the N.O. is issued by the Coast Guard, the buyer is still at risk of discovering some unexpected encumbrances on the boat.
So, as a buyer, I wouldn't be 100% happy to finalize the sale, paying the agreed amount in full, and only apply for the IT cancellation afterwards.
Otoh, normally the seller doesn't want to apply for the cancellation before having completed the transaction.

There are other ways to assure a bulletproof transaction for both the seller and the buyer, but they can indeed take some time, depending also on the response time of the specific C.G. office where the boat is registered.
That said, the possible ways to skin this cat depend also on the target flag and on the relationship between the seller and the buyer (if any), so I'm not going to write pages on all that. Just saying...

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Actually, that's a bit of a chicken or egg situation, W.

In principle, before the N.O. is issued by the Coast Guard, the buyer is still at risk of discovering some unexpected encumbrances on the boat.

Yes agreed. It is not the official BoS, the one you do at the notary. It is the one you need for the flag to start Provisional Registration.
As you know more then me a not notarized or not legalized BoS is worth pennies in Italy. This is actually where many buyers get confused.
Always thinking that they can avoid the stamp duty for transactions (Italian tax).

So, as a buyer, I wouldn't be 100% happy to finalize the sale, paying the agreed amount in full, and only apply for the IT cancellation afterwards.
Again Agreed. I said once you accept the vessel. Never pay before the Nulla Osta.

Otoh, normally the seller doesn't want to apply for the cancellation before having completed the transaction.
The seller has still all under control and can cancel the request after the Nulla Osta is done AFAIK, because the Notarized BoS was never sent.

There are other ways to assure a bulletproof transaction for both the seller and the buyer, but they can indeed take some time, depending also on the response time of the specific C.G. office where the boat is registered.
That said, the possible ways to skin this cat depend also on the target flag and on the relationship between the seller and the buyer (if any), so I'm not going to write pages on all that. Just saying...

I have done British and Maltese flags and I never had problems with this. Anyways this is the faster system I have found after trying a couple of different systems myself.

An advantage of the Italian system as Portofino said is that the Register Blue book can tell you (most) of the story of the boat.
So far I never had surprises that it was other wise, but I heard a couple of cases where it happened some years ago.

 

[MapisM]

So far I never had surprises that it was other wise, but I heard a couple of cases where it happened some years ago.

Yup, I think that unexpected surprises are indeed very rare, with the IT system.
One possible example of something for which there's no evidence in the "blue book" is a debt for unpaid crew salaries.
Normally, if the crew registered a formal claim, the C.G. should have it in their files, and this is one of the (very few) reasons why they could deny the "nulla osta" to the cancellation from IT registers, or at least keep it on hold till the case is defined.

 

[Brunan]

This system is long, and I used it once for a client and got stuck with waiting for a deletion for four months.

Anyway once the boat is accepted from yourself (after surveys etc) best system is to send original, and request for deletion letter to the Italian register of the vessel.
You start your Prov registry after this, sign a bill of sale (for youself) and wait for Nulla Osta (Permission to delete).
The Nulla Osta is a letter which apart Perm to delete will tell you the boat with Nos XGEXXXXD has no debt to the state or any encumbrances.
Nulla Osta takes about one month to come. I was doing them in two weeks from 2015 to 17 but of four I did this year they all took about a month.
After that you need to go and do an Act of Sale infront of Notary (2000 Euros) cost or a Goverment office (1000 euro cost).
There is 800 EUROS government stamps (tax) in this and this needs to be in Italian.

When you do this then you wait for Deletion Ceriticate which takes from one to two months the most.

The costs you refer related to the Notary or Goverment office, is the mandatory or something you advise to do?

Yup, I think that unexpected surprises are indeed very rare, with the IT system.
One possible example of something for which there's no evidence in the "blue book" is a debt for unpaid crew salaries.
Normally, if the crew registered a formal claim, the C.G. should have it in their files, and this is one of the (very few) reasons why they could deny the "nulla osta" to the cancellation from IT registers, or at least keep it on hold till the case is defined.

Is there any example how this blue book look like so I know when visiting the boat what to ask for?

 

[MapisM]

The costs you refer related to the Notary or Goverment office, is the mandatory or something you advise to do?

Actually, it is possible to avoid ALL the costs mentioned by PYB, which is the reason why I previously said that there are several ways to skin this cat.
In fact, neither a notarized act nor one made in front of a public officer are mandatory, when the buyer is not Italian and the boat is going to be cancelled from IT registers as a result of the transaction. And in such cases, also the tax is not applicable.

Trouble is, you can only skip all that and finalize the transaction just with a plain BoS if the seller accepts that, and he normally doesn't, because the transaction should be handled as follows:
1) the current owner (i.e. the seller, not the buyer) makes a request to the Coast Guard for the so called "sbandieramento" (cancellation from IT registers), specifying that the reason is a sale abroad. But the seller can be reluctant to apply for the cancellation before getting the money, while the seller has good reasons to not pay in full yet.
2) once the C.G. issues the Nulla Osta, the seller gives it to the buyer, who can use it to apply for a UK (or whatever) registration. Usually the new register asks for some other documents on top of the N.O., like the BoS or the CE DoC, but that depends on the requirements of the target Country, and it's a side show, in this context.
Anyway, also in this step the seller can be reluctant to give the buyer the N.O., unless the purchase has already been paid in full.
3) as soon as the new registration is issued, the buyer must give to the seller a copy, because he must send it to the IT C.G. in order to get the document confirming the final cancellation. In fact, the N.O. is just meant to confirm to the foreign register that a new registration can be done, but the actual IT cancellation remains on hold, pending evidence of the new registration. So, without this last step, the boat would remain registered also in IT - a can of worms that both the seller and the buyer should rather avoid opening.
Btw, upon first IT registration, the CE Declaration of Conformity and the Engine Manufacturer's Power Declaration must be given in original to the C.G., who keep them in their files and only gives them back after getting evidence of the new foreign registration.

Otoh, bearing in mind the above caveats, as far as the transaction goes that's all - with no notary involvement or taxes to be paid.
But you can see why this method requires some trust between the seller and the buyer.
The above is the procedure that we followed when I sold my last boat to a friend of mine, who is neither an IT citizen nor resident.
Otoh, I wouldn't have gone that route when I purchased the new to me boat from someone I had no reasons to trust completely.

Is there any example how this blue book look like so I know when visiting the boat what to ask for?

Actually, you already have it in your files: it's the "Licenza.pdf" attachment which you forwarded me via email.
Mind, it ain't actually blue, and not many people in IT would understand, if you call it blue book.
The definition is often used by foreigners just because the booklet is usually enclosed in a blue plastic cover.
But its name is "Licenza di navigazione" (literally, navigation license), and it's made of several sheets, about A5 size, stapled and folded in the center, with the boat specs and the ownership history.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Actually, it is possible to avoid ALL the costs mentioned by PYB, which is the reason why I previously said that there are several ways to skin this cat.
In fact, neither a notarized act nor one made in front of a public officer are mandatory, when the buyer is not Italian and the boat is going to be cancelled from IT registers as a result of the transaction. And in such cases, also the tax is not applicable.

I had a seller (or his broker) which stated this, and it did not work, and after months of hassling we had to revert back to the standard way.
The only way to save this 800 EUROS stamp is to use a notary (or legal person) from another country and then legalize the document from the country from which the notary is.
It has a red herring though, that the seller needs to travel to the country of the notary.
I did this quite a few times with Sicilians owners who do not mind coming to Malta, and the most they lose is a day trip. With other places it might be difficult.

 

[Brunan]

Thanks everyone for all the advice! Flights is now booked - going to Italy on Friday to survey the boat...