Treated softwood in a cockpit locker

[prv]

Would you use tanalised softwood for framing in a cockpit locker? It will be away from any bilgewater, though inevitably it will get wet from time to time. Tanalised timber is supposedly suitable for direct contact with wet earth, so should survive the odd light showering, right? It just doesn't seem quite right to be using garden timber in a boat, but it also seems like a waste of money and good timber to use boatbuilding hardwood for this mundane purpose where it won't even be visible.

(Will be buying from my local timber merchant rather than a DIY shed, so quality should hopefully be reasonable.)

I guess it would be a good idea to seal cut ends; any recommendations as to a suitable jollop?

Cheers,

Pete

 

[alahol2]

I suppose the ideal would be to give it a coat of epoxy but I should think any exterior paint/varnish system would work. As long as water can't stand on/in the structure you should be OK.

 

[prv]

I've found out that the proper stuff for treating cut ends on tanalised timber is called Ensele, ("End-seal", I guess) and can be bought from Toolstation among others. So that's that one answered although I don't really want to buy a litre tin for a dozen or so cut ends

Pete

 

[prv]

I suppose the ideal would be to give it a coat of epoxy but I should think any exterior paint/varnish system would work.

Hmm, you think I should paint it? Daft as it sounds, that hadn't actually occurred to me . I was purely thinking of whether the tanalith treatment would protect it.

As long as water can't stand on/in the structure you should be OK.

Should be safe from that. This will be framing, like joists, with a phenolic ply deck screwed down on top.

Pete

 

[Rossynant]

Not so sure with UK techniques but tanalizing is just watersoluble treatment - some cuprous salt + pesticides, driven in with pressure, vacuumed. Probably copper azole. This is not protecting against water, just against rot/insects. Wood should withstand occasional splash, sure, but it will get wet anyway. Treatment itself can leach out. Fastenings used for this should be corrosion-resistant (it's copper). Painting the wood is recommended for protection

For exposed ends of timber any preservative can be used, whatever handy, no need to use the same. Among copper kinds for marine ACZA is better, don't know if still used.

But for boat I'd prefer to treat this wood with oil, so to seal also against water; may be an oil-based treatment as well. At least for the ends, as water soak along the grain.
http://www.ptw-safetyinfo.ca/ca.htm

P.S. Cannot understand the idea often seen here that epoxy or other resin protects the wood. OK, maybe seals plywood ends. Actually such cover of resin does nothing to protect; may keep the wood dry since it's watertight, but also will keep the wood wet for same reason, prevent it drying - so makes ideal environment inside for rot.

 

[Tranona]

Would not bother with tanalised timber. Good clear softwood is fine for framing. Paint with Danbolin or Hempel equivalent. Looks good painting the whole locker with the same.

 

[Zagato]

Definitely not tanalised wood, I would use oil, varnish just make sure the oil doesn't rub off! Decks Oljie wood sealer maybe ok if it doesn't rub off...

The main thing with DIY in boats is to make a good job of it, you can knock thousands off a boat that has been "messed" about with inside, bits of mismatched shelving, brackets, hooks hanging all sort of **** up, wires and holes everywhere, strips of this and that glassed in, bodged messy painting. Some boats look like the inside of old mans sheds, I have no problem with that it's others people boats afterall but it can really mess up a boat for re-sale if it's not done to a good standard.

 

[sailorman]

I did some gelcoat repairs on a friends 48footer last summer, the "previous owner" had fitted a shelf below decks.
the shelf batten fixing screws went right through the hull

Definitely not tanalised wood, I would use oil, varnish or as Tranona suggests...

The main thing with DIY in boats is to make a good job of it, you can knock thousands off a boat that has been "messed" about with inside, bits of mismatched shelving, brackets, hooks hanging all sort of **** up, wires and holes everywhere, strips of this and that glassed in, bodged messy painting. Some boats look like the inside of old mans sheds, I have no problem with that it's others boats but it can really mess up a boat for re-sale if it's not done to a good standard.

 

[Zagato]

oops!

I spent quite a bit of time undoing all the bad DIY on my Drascombe when I first got it, the guy had taken out the compass and glassed in a round shelf to rest his cup on dripping the "glue" everywhere which is almost impossible to get back off. He had chopped up bits of ply and glassed them in under the lockers in a really haphazard manner, created dodgy flloorboards and screwed them down with ordinary ruting steel screws, made a rough chart table that wasn't fixed in properly, all the glued on edging strips fell off then he made a little box 10" long held together purely by glassing it again, all out of square and not safe! Wish these guys would leave well alone and stop playing, same goes with cars. It takes three times as much work undoing someones poor paint work, welding etc than if you could have just done it properly in the first place...

Again, everyone can do what ever they like to their boats, It's nothing to do with me but it's a PITA for the next guy that owns it and it doesn't half knock the price of a boat - good for some though I suppose as we get cheaper boats

 

[jwilson]

Cheoy Lee built beautiful looking GRP boats with thick high quality teak everywhere normally visible. They even sheathed GRP coachroof sides with teak to make it look like a wooden coachroof. I had one. If you crawled down into awkward spaces and into cockpit lockers though you could find areas of bare softwood framing, which rotted eventually.....

From garden experience tanalising is really very effective, even in horrible rot-inducing situations, as long as you dip cut edges in preservative as well. Then treated with a Ronseal-type waterbased fence-stuff, and a coat of paint over that and it should be pretty well protected. I did this tanalised/preservative/Ronseal/paint treatment on some exposed exterior cheap wood at home 10 years ago, and it's still perfect, whilst other bits that were just painted softwood have gone soft and rotted in 2-3 years.

 

[Zagato]

There is no question tanalising helps preserve wood but I wouldn't use it in a boat, far more suitable products can be used in this situation without your lockers looking like greenhouse shelving!

 

[prv]

There is no question tanalising helps preserve wood but I wouldn't use it in a boat, far more suitable products can be used in this situation without your lockers looking like greenhouse shelving!

The framing is going to be under a deck, as I said. So no visual impact at all. I'd be interested to hear of more suitable products though (apart from suggestions to build the whole lot in teak ).

I'll be using epoxy anyway to glue battens onto the hull side; perhaps I should just coat the framing with it as well and have done with it.

Pete

 

[Poignard]

Good clear softwood is fine for framing.

Most of the invisible cockpit and internal framing on my boat is softwood. Of course it's absolute rubbish and should never have been allowed but most of it has lasted 45 years!

 

[tillergirl]

The framing is going to be under a deck, as I said. So no visual impact at all. I'd be interested to hear of more suitable products though (apart from suggestions to build the whole lot in teak ).

I'll be using epoxy anyway to glue battens onto the hull side; perhaps I should just coat the framing with it as well and have done with it.

Pete

Tranona told you all you needed to know ages back "Good clear softwood is fine for framing". Clear is a technical term in this context meaning free of knots, shakes or other blemishes. Tanalised timber is very unlikely to meet this specification. Go to a proper timber merchant and not B & Q (although B & Q do have higher spec'ed softwood) and you will see and feel the difference. Prime with a marine primer from Hempels or International and Danboline or Bilge Paint over - or you can undercoat and gloss. Have owned TG for 21 years and it has and is working for me.

 

[prv]

Clear is a technical term in this context meaning free of knots, shakes or other blemishes. Tanalised timber is very unlikely to meet this specification.

The stuff I would buy is CLS construction timber - I've had a load of it before and while I can't promise that it's 100% free of knots, it certainly seemed like good stuff and not rough old B&Q fencing stock.

Go to a proper timber merchant and not B & Q (although B & Q do have higher spec'ed softwood) and you will see and feel the difference.

Already plan to, as I said in my original post. They're cheaper than B & Q, their stuff is better, and they deliver locally for free. I avoid buying timber from B&Q unless I need it urgently and for a job that can tolerate the fact that my local branch only seems to stock warped and twisted pieces

Have owned TG for 21 years and it has and is working for me.

Thanks, that's useful to know.

Pete

 

[tillergirl]

Sorted!

 

[fishermantwo]

On my fishing vessel I used treated pine a lot in the engine room for battery boxes, fuel tank supports, just about everything. Replacing the deck I used treated pine for framework etc.The deck is actually treated pine patio flooring laid with the grooved side up and covered in two layups of fibreglass and csm. In most cases I left the timber bare. Boat is 68 years old and it will last another 60 years!
The only quality timber available in timber yards locally these days is treated pine!

 

[John the kiwi]

Tranona told you all you needed to know ages back "Good clear softwood is fine for framing". Clear is a technical term in this context meaning free of knots, shakes or other blemishes. Tanalised timber is very unlikely to meet this specification. Go to a proper timber merchant and not B & Q (although B & Q do have higher spec'ed softwood) and you will see and feel the difference. Prime with a marine primer from Hempels or International and Danboline or Bilge Paint over - or you can undercoat and gloss. Have owned TG for 21 years and it has and is working for me.

Agree with most of that except the bit about Tanalised timber being unlikely to meet the good clear softwood spec.
My Pine (house, outdoor)deck has not a single knot shake or other blemish. Straight and true as the day it was put down.

Let me declare my quals. I have spent the last 12 years working for a timber chemical preservative company. I spend most of my time on sawmill and treatment plant sites assiting customers with correct use of the various chemicals and processes.
First - do not consider using untreated softwoods. Under damp warm situations it can fail amazingly fast. In Independent tests commissioned by our company 100 x 50 softwood failed completely inside 6 months when in a warm damp environment and with an initial exposure to decay funghi spores.
Second - The treatment chemicals bond into the wood and while some leaching can happen, if you have enough water exposure to leach enough chemical from the wood to affect its performance then i think you would have much bigger problems - like how to breathe underwater.
Third - chemicals are applied at different strength depending on the end use expected. Anything rated for ground contact should be pretty good.
You should still paint, stain oil or resin coat the wood according to your needs.

Correctly treated sapwood pieces of softwoods may well outlast some hardwoods.

Good luck.

 

[Tranona]

Most of the invisible cockpit and internal framing on my boat is softwood. Of course it's absolute rubbish and should never have been allowed but most of it has lasted 45 years!

Exactly the same with my 1963 wooden boat. All the softwood framing well painted with Danbolin and no sign of rot. That is why I made the suggestion. It will have an easy life in Petes application.