Transatlantic Delivery

[Saguday]

Have you considered all of the possible VAT implications re bringing her back to Europe? There have been many threads on this subject, and it is still a veritable mine field.
[\quote]

Yes, I have contributed to many of them

Its not a "veritable mine field" its very simple. If the owner is a EU tax resident that VAT ( and customs duties) will be due when she arrives in the EU. That can be the azores or her final destination , ie the UK. The VAT will be based on some documented proof of the value of the boat as aggreed with Customs, where a sale has taken place they will use the sale value. Simple end of story.

Correct but...

We bought her when we were resident in the US. HMRC appraised me of the rules before we bought her: provided we were living outside the EU for at least two years and owned her for at least 6 months before we returned she is considered personal possession and is VAT and duty exempt provided she is not sold within 1 year of importation to the UK. I have asked them 3 times just to check about this and each time had the same response. There is a standard form to fill in to bring her into the country.

We meet the first two criteria and we have no plans to sell her that quickly, if at all.

OH also she must have a RCD cert, though I think all modern island packets do, the older ones did not though. shed needs a RCD cert even if she pre-dates the introduction of the RCD. You will have to get a post construction assessment, about 10K I think.

I spent a long time looking at boats in the US specifically with a view to one day bringing whatever we bought back to the UK at some point. Many new US boats are still not CE compliant and most of the secondhand market was eliminated for this reason as well.

Island Packet made many contributions to the development of the CE standard and to my knowledge was the only US boat builder to be involved. I understand the performance of an IP29 (I think it was) at sea which survived a hurricane off the US coast provided a lot of data used in the stability assessment (IP told me that in retrospect the IP29 was on the margins of Cat A).

We finally went for an IP370 because a) she is CE Cat A certified b) has an RCD certificate c) is shallow draft (we were thinking of basing ourselves on the UK east coast when we got back) d) we loved the boat e) we got a very good deal on a nearly-new boat with only about 30 days sailing on the clock f) we couldn't afford the IP485

We also spent 6 months live aboard on her and have complete faith in her build quality and behaviour on the water. She is exceptionally comfortable to live on for extended periods and a big hit with the rest of the family.

So I guess it's time she came home

 

[npf1]

Neil - sounds like you're well versed in the VAT rules but don't forget there is a time limit. I was over that limit and it wasn't an issue, but I did get HMRC's agreement in advance that I could have extra time. PM me if you want more details. Nigel

 

[bbilly]

Regarding RCD

In Italy (were I am resident) the only RCD document needed on board is the engine gas emission (easily obtainable from the manufacturer). If the boat is imported and sold on by a business (VAT registered) then the RCD is required, otherwise not.

 

[tcm]

What a great thread. Snowleopard has got it right - ARC sets off all jolly together but next morning all the boats will be out of sight of each other. But yeah, ok, there's the *feeling* that you aren't alone, even though erm, you are. And there's also the fixed start date and time...

I agree that there shouldn't be lots of wear and tear - but there should be a healthy contingency readily available in case stuff happens - before or during a long passage there isn't the time to poke about and "see if it cures itself" or "get a mate to look at it next weekend" - it's mostly gotta work, and soonish.

I would imagine also that the bill for prepping the boat could/would be more if you do a hands off + pro delivery route. I would also imagine that an amateur skipper would want the owner along, really. Otherwise it's a unpaid pro delivery...

$2000 is a lot of diesel even for a throttle merchant like me! I have done that route three times now and never spent $2k. heyho.

 

[Heckler]

If the OP bought the boat whilst living in the USA and has since returned to live in the UK, the boat can be brought back as 'personal chattels' with no VAT to pay and a VAT Deemed Paid certificate issued. There is a time limit though, but in my experience the VAT peeps can be flexible on this.

RCD still applies as mentioned above, but if it's new enough to have the been RCD plated already, then maynot be an issue.

I agree with you, a friend of mine brought a 40ft container full of goodies, and a 72ft schooner back as personal chattels after living in Florida for 3 years.
Stu

 

[Bajansailor]

My apologies Kioni, my comments re VAT (and everything else) in my last post above were intended for Bbilly, but I guess that was not very obvious.

I still reckon though that both of you should go and 'have a bash' at it - there are all sorts of sayings that one can trot out like 'carpe diem', 'you only live once' etc - and its all relatively safe if you are sensible and reasonably well prepared (but there again I suppose one could say the same about living in any big metropolis - although I would feel much safer out in the middle of the ocean! )

 

[snowleopard]

I still reckon though that both of you should go and 'have a bash' at it - there are all sorts of sayings that one can trot out like 'carpe diem', 'you only live once' etc - and its all relatively safe if you are sensible and reasonably well prepared (but there again I suppose one could say the same about living in any big metropolis - although I would feel much safer out in the middle of the ocean! )

An inexperienced crew can usually 'get away with it' but the down side is that they may well scare themselves witless. I spoke to one such skipper who was so freaked by routine conditions on the Windies-Bermuda leg that he got a delivery crew to take it the rest of the way. He sold the boat soon after getting here.

 

[npf1]

TCM - I just dug out the scores on the trip and, OK, I was exaggerating a bit on the $2k of diesel, but not much:

distance: 3900 nm
days at sea: 32
engine hours: 380
fuel used: 2300 lites

Yep we motored half way across - it was a July/August crossing. Some of that fuel was used by the gen but probably not more than 100-200 litres. I can't remember what price was paid for the fuel, but it was more expensive in the USA than Horta, but still must have been a bit north of $1.5k in total.

 

[bbilly]

TCM - I just dug out the scores on the trip and, OK, I was exaggerating a bit on the $2k of diesel, but not much:

distance: 3900 nm
days at sea: 32
engine hours: 380
fuel used: 2300 lites

Yep we motored half way across - it was a July/August crossing. I can't remember what price was paid for the fuel, but it was more expensive in the USA than Horta, but still must have been a bit north of $1.5k in total.

Gulp! The tank on the 10m sailboat holds if I remember correctly 70 gal (300l) that means approx 85 20l tanks to stow somewhere.

Hmmmm! Need a workaround for this one!!!

 

[npf1]

Moral of the story is don't cross in Jul/Aug when there's a higher probabilty of little or no wind below 40N. Plus higher chances of a tropical storm or worse.

 

[Saguday]

My apologies Kioni, my comments re VAT (and everything else) in my last post above were intended for Bbilly, but I guess that was not very obvious.

Hey, no problem, no offence taken - I checked back and noticed that my reply looked a bit tetchy but it was because I forgot to put my "" at the end of my sentence

I still reckon though that both of you should go and 'have a bash' at it - there are all sorts of sayings that one can trot out like 'carpe diem', 'you only live once' etc - and its all relatively safe if you are sensible and reasonably well prepared (but there again I suppose one could say the same about living in any big metropolis - although I would feel much safer out in the middle of the ocean! )

Taking a view on it, talked to the missus about it last night at some length as well. I'll continue with my research...

 

[Saguday]

Neil - sounds like you're well versed in the VAT rules but don't forget there is a time limit. I was over that limit and it wasn't an issue, but I did get HMRC's agreement in advance that I could have extra time. PM me if you want more details. Nigel

Hi Nigel, yes, the time limit is one year, after that discretionary - I have talked to them about it but I think I need to do so again, just to be sure

I'll PM you, would be good to hear your experiences

 

[jonic]

Kioni

We went through a similar dilemma last year. Our first boat was sailed from Europe across the Atlantic by us on the Bluewater Rally, Rally Antigua. It was great and at that time we had no kids. Then we stopped at Conception Island in the Bahamas and, ahem, the Island lived up to it's name. So we flew back to the UK to have the baby. Whilst home, the boat was wrecked in Hurricane Ivan in Grenada. Those two events put quite a dent in our plans! We went on to have a second baby, bought the new boat and moved her down to the med with the intention of getting back across the Atlantic and carrying on.

We were going to wait until the second baby was older than two before we crossed, but were very nervous about doing it with such young kids. So we looked into shipping or deliveries.

After a lot of angst, we chose float on float off shipping with Dockwise.
It meant that we could go back to the Caribbean a year early before the baby was older, and the money we saved on another years berthing in Mallorca went a long way to covering the shipping. It did feel like cheating, but we had done it a few years before and by the time the boat arrived in the Caribbean that was very quickly forgotten. The process was so simple and we had no wear and tear on the boat at all.

The Dockwise ship arrived in Palma one morning and the following day we simply sailed from our berth, straight into the ship and tied her up. Dockwise then did the rest in a very slick operation. 14 days later we met the boat in Martinique, sailed her out the ship and were at anchor 15 minutes later.

It is possible to get a very reduced rate by booking an off season voyage. (Essentially this is when the ship is returning virtually empty after doing an "on season voyage" in the other direction)

I know how you feel when you have kids and are trying to make a decision. We went round in circles and got pretty seriously stressed out by it. Nothing ever felt right and we would change our minds on an almost daily basis.

Now we don't even think about it and have had a great season in the Caribbean and like you are now in the Chesapeake. We start heading south down the bay tomorrow, but if our paths cross, come over for a drink if you want to have a chat about it.

Here's a couple of pics.

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt67/yachtseraphim/Dockwise/015Seraphimdwarfed.jpg

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt67/yachtseraphim/Dockwise/023Seraphimdryandchocked.jpg

 

[goboatingnow]

"In Italy (were I am resident) the only RCD document needed on board is the engine gas emission (easily obtainable from the manufacturer). If the boat is imported and sold on by a business (VAT registered) then the RCD is required, otherwise not."

em no not at all , RCD is a directive, its harmonised across the EU. The boat must be constructed to teh relevant RCD standard, other then CAT D , by a qualifed body and the "technical file" and other documents must be prepared and available and lastly RCD specified CE builders plate affixed. The "gas engine document" is merely a part of teh RCD that was added recently. Italy complies the same as any other EU country.