Transatlantic Delivery

Saguday

Saguday

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It's about time we brought Saguday (our Island Packet 370) back from the Chesapeake Bay to the UK, probably next year.

SWMBO and I do not feel we are experienced enough to undertake this, especially with kids, so have looked at shipping vs delivery crew. Shipping is looking very expensive, £10-11k+, delivery around £7-8k.

I throw this out to the floor for comment: anyone done either of these? is the extra cost of shipping worth saving the wear and tear of a transat? any recommendations for delivery skippers/crews/companies? any comments on west-->east transatlantic crossings by those of you who have done it?

Thanks!

Neil
 
I did the same crossing (from Yorktown, Chesapeake) via Bermuda and Azores in 2005 and the cruising speed of my boat is probably broadly similar to yours.

It took a long time - 5 days to Bermuda, 16 to Azores and 10 to Plymouth - and, due to lack of wind for us, a lot of diesel (like $2k worth!). If long pasages are your thing and you have the time available, then it can be a great experience. I enjoyed it and would do it again, time permitting. However, I would have loved to spend some decent cruising time in the Azores, rather than a pit stop. A few days in Bermuda was enough.

If I was faced with the same situtation again - time poor but need to move the boat - I would get it delivered to the Azores, cruise the area and then amble back to Blighty, perhaps even a season later.

Nigel
 
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Some years ago I met a couple with two little children on a Victoria 34 in Bermuda - they were on a 'gap year' and were on their way back home to England after sailing out to the Windies the previous winter. I was crewing for a friend, and we were bound for Newport, Rhode Island.
His Dad had accompanied them on the way out to the Caribbean, as they had never been across the Atlantic before, but they were doing the return trip by themselves. So they had 3 adults and 2 children on a 34 ft yacht, for a 2,700 mile passage, and that worked out ok.

If you can get the time off work, and you are able to take your children out of school (a sailing trip like that would be far better experience than anything they are taught at school!), how about doing it yourselves with an extra crew in the form of a good friend to help?
From the entrance of the Chesapeake to Bermuda is only about 600 odd miles - ok, you have to go across the Gulf Stream, but with the routing advice given by wonderful people like Herb it should be a doddle, and Bermuda is a nice place to visit.
Bermuda to the Azores is about 1,800 miles I think - take extra jerry cans of diesel on this leg, especially if the Azores high is making itself known! That year (summer 1995) when the Vic 34 was returning home there was very little wind between Bermuda and the Azores, and some boats motored most of the way. Although Don Street on Iolaire somehow managed to find enough wind to keep themselves going, and they sailed the whole way (they had to, as Iolaire has no engine) in a very respectable passage time.

And then you could perhaps sail over to Portugal from the Azores if you are running out of time, or directly back to England.
 
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I would suggest getting an experienced skipper to help you bring it over. You would get the required skills and would learn along the way so you'd probably be ready to tackle a long passage yourselves. With luck you might find someone who would do it for expenses or failing that the cost of one person rather than a delivery crew would be cheaper. There are plenty around here who would be capable, the trick would be finding one who has the time.

I'd offer myself but it would screw up my season's cruising plans.
 
snowleopard has made a very sensible suggestion. With the economic downturn there is less delivery work about, so finding an experienced delivery skipper to accompany you should not be difficult.

You could check with PYDW - easily googled -, as well as being a highly reputable delivery company, IIRC they also offer their skippers for accompanied deliveries.

(If you are looking at delivery co's, make sure you read the thread on here and in the Lounge about Reliance)
 
If it's pure cost then I think shipping is probably cheaper as others have said this crossing often involves a bit of diesel for a delivery crew to keep to a schedule on time.

Wear and tear on a crossing is likely to be 2-3000, sails, running rigging, steering system etc.

What you will miss is the Azores which are on of the loveliest group of islands and people. If you want the boat home to cruise UK waters then ship her, if you want to gain ocean confidence go with a skipper, if you might want to cruise the azores get it sailed there and then join the boat with a skipper to get you back to Spain or UK.

I'd go for the sail it but that's because I'd stop for a month in the Azores.

It's surprising what you can break or wear out in an ocean crossing.
 
Quoted $12,900

snowleopard said:
I would suggest getting an experienced skipper to help you bring it over. You would get the required skills and would learn along the way so you'd probably be ready to tackle a long passage yourselves. With luck you might find someone who would do it for expenses or failing that the cost of one person rather than a delivery crew would be cheaper. There are plenty around here who would be capable, the trick would be finding one who has the time.

I'd offer myself but it would screw up my season's cruising plans.
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I am weighing up sailing the winter and bringing a 10m AWB from the Caribé to the med next spring. I was quoted $12,900 shipping for May 2010, St.Thomas to Balearics or Genoa. Trying to figure how to squeeze it into a 40' container but won't fit. I also don't feel confident of a first trans as captain and Snows idea is a good idea.

Any idea what the cost of a delivery capt. could be? I've got a strong son as deck hand.

Also what sort of costs to equip the boat, the engine has 4500 hours and I probably need a new wardrobe anyway so I'm planning on some refitting sooner or later.
 
£7K-£8K for delivery plus fuel, lets say £5K for new sails plus £250 for new halyards and shipping starts to look more attractive. Putting a value on your time vs. experience gained is less straight forward. The other question to throw into the mix is what you intend doing with the boat once back in the UK, if you intend to sell her will you be forced to discount on price due to wear and tear after the delivery, from observation long distance cruising equipment has limited value to folks who only intend to sail closer to home, there are more of these than long distance sailors.

A thought to ponder.
 
SailingDog said:
£7K-£8K for delivery plus fuel, lets say £5K for new sails plus £250 for new halyards and shipping starts to look more attractive. Putting a value on your time vs. experience gained is less straight forward. The other question to throw into the mix is what you intend doing with the boat once back in the UK, if you intend to sell her will you be forced to discount on price due to wear and tear after the delivery, from observation long distance cruising equipment has limited value to folks who only intend to sail closer to home, there are more of these than long distance sailors.

A thought to ponder.
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Thanks for the input for my XLS. I've got 2 free years ahead. My plan would be to use the boat in the Caribè Jan - May and then as a liveaboard for next summer in the med. I've budgeted $10k for refitting anyway (in my XLS). With the experience acquired i'd be more confident for a return trip to the Caribè in Oct/Nov 2011.

Now regarding a delivery capt. Turning over the idea of hiring for Bermuda - Azores which seems to be 16 days. Then I can take her from there. $8000 is too much. What's there a daily rate or is by leg?
 
I doubt it's charged by the leg. As most skippers have just two, the ability to even cover your costs is limited. Much more likely to be by the mile.









I'm so sorry, I couldn't resist. I will try harder next time.
 
An Island Packet is a boat built for sailing across oceans. It seems such a shame to stick yachts like this on ships. Let me give one moral, one financial and one environmental argument for crewed delivery:

Firstly, it is a good thing to give opportunities for ocean sailing to the many who wish to do it, few of whom can afford to own their own yachts. Deliveries sustain a cohort of professional yacht captains and are a training ground for the young people who will be continuing the yachting community into the future.

Secondly, even if it is assumed that there will be wear and tear to your boat (and any decent skipper will have ways to prevent this) , will the cost of brand new lines and sails be any more than the difference in transport price? Replace them and your boat will look better than when it set off. Don't be fooled that a yacht won't suffer just because it is freight .... the loading and unloading can be perilous operations and damage is common. Likely it will then arrive covered in seagul **** and coated in exhaust dust.

Lastly, the damage that commercial shipping does to our environment is huge. Air transport gets all the headlines, but if you are at all interested in reducing your carbon footprint and cleaning up the oceans, then have her sailed.


I declare a vested interest here and would be pleased to quote if you'd like to PM me. Otherwise, I agree with the good things said about PYD ... and the bad things said about Reliance.
 
For Bbilly - no worries about stuffing her in a 40' container if you acquire one of these container yachts!
http://www.containeryachts.com/container_yachts.swf

Joking aside, it sounds like you are buying an ex-charter boat, probably in the BVIs?
(Basing this on the 4,500 hrs of engine usage, and an estimated age of perhaps 10 years).

Have you considered all of the possible VAT implications re bringing her back to Europe? There have been many threads on this subject, and it is still a veritable mine field.

I met a couple of former bareboats in Bermuda last year that were being sailed back to Europe from the Caribbean - they had some extra kit on board for the crossing, but just the basic essentials. Both were being sailed by 'professional' skippers who picked up crew along the way.

For your 10 m yacht, three crew in total would probably be ideal - with 4 then you have to increase your stores and water taken on board by 35%. You already have one keen crew in the form of your son, maybe see if you can shanghai a reasonably experienced crew / friend to join you?
Windies to Bermuda is a tad under 1,000 miles, and you should be able to do that in 7 - 10 days - even on this leg in April / May it is a good idea to carry extra jerry cans of diesel. We took 9 days on a 35' yacht, incl a fair bit of motoring.
And more diesel is usually required for the leg to the Azores..... I would have thought that the most difficult leg would be the last hop back to Europe, getting into colder waters and increased traffic, and by then you will have a lot more confidence in yourself and your crew, and be wondering what the fuss was all about last year...... :)
 
Hi Everyone,

Thanks a lot for all your thoughtful and considered comments.

There is a lot to reply to here.

First my own feelings. Yes, an IP is an ocean boat and my heart says she should sail over. Sticking her on a ship seems like cheating somehow. We bought her for extended cruising and it seems a waste not to use her for that. I think the costs may end up being comparable all things considered. There is also this nagging feeling that if she was sailed over I'd have to go as well rather than just have her delivered, it's too much a once-in-a-lifetime experience.

Against this, my own lack of true ocean experience, although with a professional skipper this would be alleviated and yes there's this opportunity to learn a lot in one big chunk. I have crossed the Atlantic, when I was 14 and we emigrated to Canada from the UK, and I well remember the F9 storm 3 days out and the seas the day after and our fully-stabilised ship pitching about 30-40ft. It was awe-inspiring and frightening and I said to my dad at the time that I would never cross the Atlantic in anything less than 18,000 tons... then again it was November, which is a bit of a daft time to be in the north Atlantic through choice.

But now 35 years later I have a slowly growing collection of books about doing transatlantic crossings in small boats.

So do I have the bottle and more importantly do I have the time? I'd need 6 weeks out to do it at least and with my current work commitments I just don't see how I could do that in a conventional manner.

Snowleopard has probably identified the best compromise. I had already been in touch with PYD before I posted this thread and I am very impressed with them so far. It has not escaped my notice that they are held in high regard here. I know from their website they do accompanied trips as well as full deliveries. I also know a few other people who have done this several times and in informal conversations I've had no shortage of volunteers willing to do the trip :) I note matsandys arguments and don't disagree and may well contact to discuss and get a quote.

To be honest though I don't know if SWMBO would do such a trip. We do have a desire to go on an extended liveaboard cruise as a family again and the idea of combining the two, exploring the Azores and bringing the boat back at the end is a more attractive target to plan for. To achieve this though I would have to be out of the regular work thing for an extended period, which is likely to require some complex planning. We have done it before though. Or we just sell up and be done with it, which has also crossed our minds.

We don't plan to just sell the boat when we get back (there are tax implications anyway). We had what we thought was probably a once-only chance to buy a top end boat when we lived in the US with the intention she'd last us a lifetime if that was what we wanted. We'd like her back in the UK close by so that we can sail her in home waters as the kids go through the later school years in a few years time but after that we'll probably take off and go further afield again, maybe just the two of us at this time.

So a lot to chew over and this thread is all part of gathering ideas and opinions and having something to think about over during the winter months. At least we have the boat, although it is frustrating that she is so far away - and when all is said and done bringing her over on a ship is a much lesser waste of her capabilities than having her laid up ashore for another year.

Thanks!

Neil
 
Agree with Snow Leopard - good move and you will learn a lot.

Somewhat irreverently however, what are you lot doing to your boats that it costs so much in wear and tear to do a transat? New sails??!! Blimey. Sure, there are exceptions and I know its a bit uncomfortable and there is always the prospect of storms etc, but I would hope most boats from Bavarias to Oysters would arrive pretty much as they set out - it would make a bit of a mockery of most circumnavs if that weren't the case.

Can of worms...?
 
Did a transat Caribbean back to Ireland and then again to UK in 2004, 1st one on a 36ft with 3 of us, 7 days Antigua - Bermuda, 14 days Bermuda -Azores, 9 days Azores - Ireland. The most diesel was used Bermuda - Azores in the last few days, however we also encountered a F9, though this was actually preferable to a F8 in the channel - more spacing between waves, less choppy etc.
I have to say I don't agree with the need to replace sails etc, you're not racing you're cruising! Good seamanship and carrying out simple tasks like reefing at night when there is only 1 person really around saves a whole bunch of hassle.

The Azores - UK trip was done on a 33 footer again with 3 of us, it was a delivery of a friends boat and I only charged provisioning and airfare (for all of us), though the going rate was 1GBP per mile at the time, it took 11 days and we motored for 8 or 9 of them.

If you're a bit worried about doing a transat, look at ARC Europe that comes back around May time, it can give you quite a bit of confidence to know that there are a few other boats doing the trip the same time as you with friendly faces you've already met in Bermuda, failing that, set off the same time as them, at least you know you're not on your own....

In all honesty I got through more books on the crossing than anything else, it's exciting but nowhere near as big a deal as you may think it is (God willing of course).
 
Have you considered all of the possible VAT implications re bringing her back to Europe? There have been many threads on this subject, and it is still a veritable mine field.
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Its not a "veritable mine field" its very simple. If the owner is a EU tax resident that VAT ( and customs duties) will be due when she arrives in the EU. That can be the azores or her final destination , ie the UK. The VAT will be based on some documented proof of the value of the boat as aggreed with Customs, where a sale has taken place they will use the sale value. Simple end of story.

OH also she must have a RCD cert, though I think all modern island packets do, the older ones did not though. shed needs a RCD cert even if she pre-dates the introduction of the RCD. You will have to get a post construction assessment, about 10K I think.
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If the OP bought the boat whilst living in the USA and has since returned to live in the UK, the boat can be brought back as 'personal chattels' with no VAT to pay and a VAT Deemed Paid certificate issued. There is a time limit though, but in my experience the VAT peeps can be flexible on this.

RCD still applies as mentioned above, but if it's new enough to have the been RCD plated already, then maynot be an issue.
 
If you hire a delivery crew, expect to pay $2-3 per mile. If you hire just a skipper then it will be travel expenses plus a per diem rate, in the region of $200 per day I'd guess. The cheapest way would be to find a qualified amateur and pay expenses and food.

goboatingnow said:
OH also she must have a RCD cert, .... You will have to get a post construction assessment, about 10K I think.
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Most people who bring boats back opt for class D (inland waters) classification. It's a lot cheaper than A or B and for a British-flagged yacht it doesn't matter what class it is as long as as you have a CE mark.

Woodlouse said:
If you want to sail her back yourself then the ARC crosses from Bermuda to the Azores in May which would be an excellent opportunity to skipper your first ocean passage.
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But don't regard the ARC as a way for inexperienced sailors to cross an ocean. The standard of seamanship required is just as high as an independent passage.
 
snowleopard said:
But don't regard the ARC as a way for inexperienced sailors to cross an ocean. The standard of seamanship required is just as high as an independent passage.
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It's not a replacement for seamanship, but it does enough to give you confidence that you might not have in going alone. The organisers will do the weather forecasting and routing for you and the fact you're setting off with a fleet of 20 or 30 other boats to be in contact with does provide a feeling that you're not alone.
 
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