Tragic accidents... all the skippers fault?

Nostrodamus said:
so, it would appear there are very few instances of fatality where the boat gave out rather than the crew. So in most cases just huddling in a saloon and praying to ones god may save your life more than actually trying to do something?
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No, not as simplistic as that. There are many instances of boats disappearing at sea complete with their crews - but little is known about the events that led up to the foundering simply because there are no witnesses. There are also examples of people abandoning ship and the boat turning up some time later, still afloat.

The ones we hear most about are those that happen close to land so might be observed or rescue services are involved so there is some reasonably reliable account of what went wrong. However, very few are systematically reported upon or result in an exhaustive enquiry so it is not easy to draw any reliable statistical conclusions. It is though clear that there are 3 main underlying causes of foundering or potential foundering - extreme weather, structural failure and collisions. Apart from the last where the outcome is almost certain where it is a big ship and a yacht, the actual outcome of a potential foundering situation is difficult to predict as it is affected by the actions or inactions of the crew.

As a generalisation the old sailors' preference for keeping away from land, particularly a lee shore and riding out bad weather is a sound strategy, but inevitably there are some situations where the conditions will overwhelm a yacht. On the other hand there are many examples of yachts surviving extreme conditions - for example entering a shallow harbour through breaking waves where others have been lost trying the same.

It is sobering to read the formal reports of founderings - for example from the MAIB as there is always something to learn, but it is not easy to see any real patterns - each event is unique.
 
Capt Popeye said:
I know its age related, but from my experience the Yachting and Sailing books that I refered to were written when boats had long keels, poss drew deep water under them, and so were regarded as Seaworthy craft.
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I think a modern yacht is probably more safe. I did a good few miles in a wooden gaffer with traditional loose lead ballast in the bottom - if it had rolled, the ballast would no longer be in the bottom of the boat. A bermudan rig can also sail closer to the wind, which can make a big difference if trying to clear a lee shore.

If you're comparing, say, a corribee, and a Mini 650, they could be equally safe, but would warrant different tactics. The Mini can shoot off downwind at 20 knots and considerably lessen the relative speed of waves and wind. The Corribee could probably sit more comfortably to warps.

Nostrodamus said:
so, it would appear there are very few instances of fatality where the boat gave out rather than the crew. So in most cases just huddling in a saloon and praying to ones god may save your life more than actually trying to do something?
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I think your god is more likey to hear your prayers if you are facing the right direction (i.e. not side on to the waves). There's a formula from tank tests, that to roll a boat, a wave has to be (IIRC) something like twice the beam. You can do this passively, by towing warps, or some such, or you can achieve it with a man at the wheel, but achieve it you must.

I'm sure you've seen the video of YM's crash test boat rolling. The cabin can be a dangerous place to be, too.
 
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I absolutely recognise the psychology of wanting to be safe back in harbour - of assuming (because that's where all our experience lies) that that's the place to be in bad conditions - of the determination (fueled by panic) of wanting to get into safety, at any cost or risk. Or, arriving at a harbour at the end of a hard long day sail, having planned to go in there - the huge temptation to enter even if it's dangerous to do so.

I've been there, and it we're honest I'm sure a lot of us have.

It takes a lot of experience, including experience at sea in heavy weather, to realise that you genuinely can keep yourself safe in the open sea and that sometimes it's far better to take that option - or sail further to another safer port.

Probably the key is for the skipper and the crew to by psychologically prepared to stay out at sea, overnight if necessary, and of course the boat to be prepared for that too. It's always possible to be caught out by rapidly changing weather on a day sail.

Also, get some experience of being out there in heavier condiitons - despite the warnings you will probably receive not to risk it, there is no substitute for experiencing these conditions and learning how you and your yacht cope with them.

And I'm not sure the official accident reports always fully appreciate the gut-wrenching panic that, with amateur skippers, probably inspires some of these decisions!
 
Barnacle Bill said:
Also, get some experience of being out there in heavier condiitons - despite the warnings you will probably receive not to risk it, there is no substitute for experiencing these conditions and learning how you and your yacht cope with them.
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Why? .... Surley you are putting yourself and possibly others in the position you were trying to avoid in the first place. I feel your loose lead ballast has slipped!!!!
 
>It was a replica of HMS Endeavour, the boat that Captain Cook sailed.

In addition to that a 50 foot yacht sank recently in 50 knot winds and big seas, two people killed off the American east coast.

As for staying at sea I defintely would, and we did, witness the boats wrecked trying to get into some of the Portuguese rivers with marinas. It's madness to try.
 
Nostrodamus said:
Why? .... Surley you are putting yourself and possibly others in the position you were trying to avoid in the first place. I feel your loose lead ballast has slipped!!!!
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I couldn't agree less. When you go out to sea in stronger conditions, work out what your options are: e.g. you may be sailing from somewhere that it's quite safe to go back into, and the wind may favour that option. And obviously, don't attempt anything hugely stronger that you've dealt with before. So you're not putting anyone at risk, but you are gaining valuable experience that you may need if you get caught out one day. Or if you prefer, take someone with you who is more experienced, and can advise you.

If you sit at home reading books on heavy weather, you will never find out what it feels like to deal with it.

But I have heard similar sentiments to yours, over the VHF once when I called in a passage plan to the CG. They made if very clear that in their opinion we shouldn't go out, but I learned so much that day, and remained totally safe, that I am confident that I made the right decision to proceed. I found out, for example, that I needed to shake out a reef if I wanted to make any progress into the seas when the wind was dropping; and I discovered a design fault in the yacht, subsequently corrected, that was only apparent when we were taking a bit of water onto the foredeck.
 
Barnacle Bill said:
I couldn't agree less. When you go out to sea in stronger conditions, work out what your options are: e.g. you may be sailing from somewhere that it's quite safe to go back into, and the wind may favour that option. And obviously, don't attempt anything hugely stronger that you've dealt with before. So you're not putting anyone at risk, but you are gaining valuable experience that you may need if you get caught out one day. Or if you prefer, take someone with you who is more experienced, and can advise you.

If you sit at home reading books on heavy weather, you will never find out what it feels like to deal with it.

But I have heard similar sentiments to yours, over the VHF once when I called in a passage plan to the CG. They made if very clear that in their opinion we shouldn't go out, but I learned so much that day, and remained totally safe, that I am confident that I made the right decision to proceed. I found out, for example, that I needed to shake out a reef if I wanted to make any progress into the seas when the wind was dropping; and I discovered a design fault in the yacht, subsequently corrected, that was only apparent when we were taking a bit of water onto the foredeck.
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I agree with you in part Jon. It is I think essential for skippers to experience serious weather but it's probably safer to do so with more experienced people first. My only experiences of severe weather have been with others, in many cases they have allowed me to make my own decisions but their greater experience is there in case (when?) I get it wrong. Mark is right I think that if you feel it's too dangerous for you as skipper (and the most experienced person on the boat) then you should stay in port.

Experience is a great teacher, but she puts in huge bills....... :)
 
Tony Cross said:
... if you feel it's too dangerous for you as skipper (and the most experienced person on the boat) then you should stay in port.
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Completely with you on that. But you need to develop your own judgement on these situations - listen to, but don't rely on, other people's advice.

There's a saying in flying that "it's better to be down here wishing you were up there, than to be up there wishing you were down here". While this also applies to yachting, the timescales and speeds are different - so it's perfectly possible to set to sea on a glorious morning, then find yourself battling with an unexpected gale 5 hours later. And if you've never been out in a strong wind before, that can be very frightening.
 
So that brings us full circle back to the original question in a way. Its that fear and worry that may drive a skipper to do what he would never normally conciser doing if he were sat in a pub or on a forum talking about it. Now when you have other less experienced crew members, all more frightened continually directing their fear and worried towards you things become amplified. Telling them that the best place to go is away from land and out into that storm is irrational to them.
The boat can often take it with a little guidance but the crew... they usually give up well before.
 
Sinnot said:
Wow, tough call to make. To be almost in port and to decide to go out into a storm not knowing how long its going to last. I'm guessing that guy had a lot of beers bought for him later that night...
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It was a squall, not a storm. Storms last longer than 15 mins. Good call, but common sense really.

- W
 
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