Trafalgar Day

Fantasie 19 said:
What's always irritated me is the lack of a BH in the middle of summer... I vote for a "D-Day" Day... :D
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I agree about a BH in middle of summer. What I have never understood is why we ignore Waterloo Day, 15th June. Surely Waterloo was the decisive defeat over Napoleon? I do appreciate the maritime connection for yacht clubs to celebrate Trafalgar but Wellington had more sense to fight his battle in summertime, didn't he?

As for upsetting the French I thought we did a better job of that when Sarkozy last visited us. He arrived at Waterloo station and was driven through Trafalgar Square to admire Nelson's Column. It was just a pity we did not have anywhere celebrating Agincourt on his way to Buckingham Palace!
 
1000 Years of Annoying the French

by Stephen Clarke

It's one of the best books I've read in a very very long time - actually it would be in my all time top 5 come to think of it

Honestly, get a copy - it's brilliant!

(and not anti-French either, the author is a Francophile who lives in Paris and it's actually really well balanced, historically accurate and yet still hysterically funny)
 
Probably the worst thing we ever did was to defeat Napoleon. Set the country back decades, and cemented us in our belief in our island fortress.

If Napoleon we'd have had decent education, an excellent legal system, good roads and, of course, much better cuisine.

Back on topic can I also point out that May Day across the world is celebrated as Labour Day, except for the UK and a handful of other countries where it celebrates not very much at all? If the 1st of May is not to be celebrated as international workers day, then it's pointless having it. Does say a lot, however, about British society and its attitude to workers. Perhaps the holiday culd become more reflective of current values and change to Shopping Day - oh, sorry, that's Christmas, isn't it.
 
Bosun Higgs,

to go back a few posts, Beltane & Llamas were 2 of the old British ( Celtic ) pagan gods, who are certainly more deserving than the cruel Christian upstart...seem to remember Beltane was god of fire, so mixed ( along with others ) with blacksmiths etc, and Llamas with fertility & the land, Llamas day being what became hijacked as Christmas ?
 
Seajet said:
Bosun Higgs,

to go back a few posts, Beltane & Llamas were 2 of the old British ( Celtic ) pagan gods, who are certainly more deserving than the cruel Christian upstart...seem to remember Beltane was god of fire, so mixed ( along with others ) with blacksmiths etc, and Llamas with fertility & the land, Llamas day being what became hijacked as Christmas ?
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You forgot to mention Brigantia :( :D (actually more properly Brigit or Brigid it is thought, Brigantia being the "Latinised" version thereof)
 
Brigantia,

I remember Brigid ( later hijacked, like all the old gods, at St.Brides bay for instance ) but was simply answering to the 2 mentioned; there are of course a great many others...:)
 
avole said:
can I also point out that May Day across the world is celebrated as Labour Day, except for the UK and a handful of other countries where it celebrates not very much at all? If the 1st of May is not to be celebrated as international workers day, then it's pointless having it.
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It was introduced as a bank holiday in 1978 by the Labour government. It had previously been a holiday only in Scotland. It was originally referred to as May Day and linked to International Workers Day. When the Tories got back in they re-named it to remove the socialist implications but were afraid to abolish it because taking away a public holiday is a sure way to lose votes. I guess now they are hoping to finish the job.

Having 4 bank holidays in Spring then only one from then till Christmas is pretty nonsensical. Far better to have holidays when the weather is good enough to enjoy the break. There is too much tradition perhaps to alter Good Friday or Easter Monday but the two May holidays would be better in say June and July.

I doubt putting one after August would help the tourist trade. In America Labor day is seen as the end of summer so a late holiday here might equally serve to stop the continued expansion of tourism into the autumn.
 
avole said:
Probably the worst thing we ever did was to defeat Napoleon. Set the country back decades, and cemented us in our belief in our island fortress.

If Napoleon we'd have had decent education, an excellent legal system, good roads and, of course, much better cuisine.

Back on topic can I also point out that May Day across the world is celebrated as Labour Day, except for the UK and a handful of other countries where it celebrates not very much at all? If the 1st of May is not to be celebrated as international workers day, then it's pointless having it. Does say a lot, however, about British society and its attitude to workers. Perhaps the holiday culd become more reflective of current values and change to Shopping Day - oh, sorry, that's Christmas, isn't it.
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It was argued in the book"the Most Dangerous Enemy" (about the battle of britain) that this victory also was the worst thing to happen in britain as it also cemented the island fortress mentality. Look at germany now- biggest economic force in Western Europe compared to britan's continuing decline.
 
Little Five,

I know what you're getting at, but any decline would have been remarkably steep and short if we'd been 'far-sighted' enough to let Hitler come across unopposed ! :)

And the Germans don't get it easy; they're still Germans...
 
snowleopard said:
It was introduced as a bank holiday in 1978 by the Labour government. It had previously been a holiday only in Scotland. It was originally referred to as May Day and linked to International Workers Day. When the Tories got back in they re-named it to remove the socialist implications but were afraid to abolish it because taking away a public holiday is a sure way to lose votes. I guess now they are hoping to finish the job.

Having 4 bank holidays in Spring then only one from then till Christmas is pretty nonsensical. Far better to have holidays when the weather is good enough to enjoy the break. There is too much tradition perhaps to alter Good Friday or Easter Monday but the two May holidays would be better in say June and July.

I doubt putting one after August would help the tourist trade. In America Labor day is seen as the end of summer so a late holiday here might equally serve to stop the continued expansion of tourism into the autumn.
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Interesting, I didn't know that, but haven't lived in the UK for a long time.

Nevertheless, why is there opposition to May day celebrating international workers day? Other countries don't have a problem, irrespective of the flavour of government.

Better a day to celebrate the workers than one celebrating the birthday of a monarch who is, largely speaking, irrelevant.
 
Seajet said:
Little Five,

I know what you're getting at, but any decline would have been remarkably steep and short if we'd been 'far-sighted' enough to let Hitler come across unopposed ! :)

And the Germans don't get it easy; they're still Germans...
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To use a well worn phrase-"we are where we are". I am of the opinion, right or wrong, that Britain doesn't have the ability to re-invent itself and the status quo continues to dominate.
Germany suffered the steep/short decline and Britain as part of the occupying force helped rebuild Germany- how come we cannot do that for ourselves.
Returning to the OP, perhaps Bank Holidays should become "RE-Invent UK" work days and not holidays. (Runs for cover)
 
avole said:
Probably the worst thing we ever did was to defeat Napoleon. Set the country back decades, and cemented us in our belief in our island fortress.

If Napoleon we'd have had decent education, an excellent legal system, good roads and, of course, much better cuisine.
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Is this a joke? I have never heard of ANYONE arguing that Napolean taking over the world (as was his intention) would have been a good thing.
 
john_morris_uk said:
Is this a joke? I have never heard of ANYONE arguing that Napolean taking over the world (as was his intention) would have been a good thing.
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Well, you have put words in my mouth. Nevertheless it remains true that the British obstinately refuse to re-evaluate the Napoleonic era and see that the time, and the man, isn't quite as portrayed by jingoistic historians and novelists.

Other countries, however, have done so, and their views are rather more balanced. I know its hard for a Brit to accept, but Napoleon's legacy has been far more positive than just about any other monarch or emperor you care to think of.

Yes, he dominated Europe, but he also gave quite a lot that has shaped modern Europe.

It's about time the education system in the UK had a rethink and got away from the evil monster syndrome when it comes to the little Corsican.
 
I think that trying to re-evaluate the little Corsican is something that other European countries do in the light of their history. For me, saying that Napolean brought good things to the world is like saying that Mussolini made the trains run on time or that Hitler was an effective leader. There might be some truth in it, but it misses the point. Of course, some will point to the metric system etc, but who says that those sorts of things wouldn't have happened anyway?

I know is a truism that that history is written by the victors, but I still quite like our parliamentary democracy, monarchy, and many of the values the UK has traditionally stood for.
 
Seajet said:
to go back a few posts, Beltane & Llamas were 2 of the old British ( Celtic ) pagan gods...
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Not god, but festivals. Beltane was the Celtic equivalent of May Day and Lammas (Loaf Mass) was an Anglo-Saxon harvest festival at the beginning of August - corresponding to the Celtic Lughnasa. Now much beloved by grubby young people with trust funds and piercings who like to play at being pagans.
 
john_morris_uk said:
I think that trying to re-evaluate the little Corsican is something that other European countries do in the light of their history. For me, saying that Napolean brought good things to the world is like saying that Mussolini made the trains run on time or that Hitler was an effective leader. There might be some truth in it, but it misses the point.
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I'm afraid you have utterly missed the point. There are no parallels between Napoleon and Mussolini or Hitler.

I suggest a little more research into Napoleon might not go amiss, and his contribution to Law and the Education system in those countries under his jurisdiction.

In many ways Wellington is the bad boy of history, not Napoleon.
 
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