Touch screen nav displays. Fashion or function?

[pan]

Yea but do we really need all these sexy dials and gauges and fancy readouts...you might get them on a supercar,but on a boat why not omit them for some pop up alarm...you set the parameter..oil pressure down 5 PCT or...I want to know if it goes wrong not that it is going right if you get my point

Yes I get your point, and in fact with the new electronic controls & engine management you have exactly that… except usually the engine management shuts down into safety mode (i.e. tick over or complete shutdown) I would rather notice slight changes before that system shuts me down and I can do something about it.

 

[jfm]

But what do you do if it all stops working?

I'll tell you if it ever happens. Don't wait around for my post though! Ref your last sentence and the implication that having/enjoying a bunch of electronics means you don't know what a chart is, ha bl00dy ha.

 

[jfm]

BUT, I wonder, does it really matter?
...which other bits you folks think are necessary

do we really need all these sexy dials

Let's keep it in perspective. All this "dashboard-on-boats" topic has nothing to do with need/necessity/mattering. MRC has just made a new thread on flyboards and seabobs; go and talk about "need" on there

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

BUT, I wonder, does it really matter?

Yes it does matter. You have omitted from your list electronic engine control screens. With modern electronically controlled engines you often don't get a nice bank of duplicated analog instruments but a single screen and if it's like my boat you are regularly having to scroll between pages to get vital info like coolant temp and oil pressure so yes it is important that these screens are located so that they can easily be operated from the helm seat (which they aren't on my boat). Also I'm surprised that you don't regularly zoom in and out on your plotter. No criticism intended but I find it useful to zoom in and out especially in trickier pilotage situations.
As you say, it wouldn't take much for boatbuilders to properly design helm stations so why not do it?

 

[gjgm]

Yes it does matter. You have omitted from your list electronic engine control screens. With modern electronically controlled engines you often don't get a nice bank of duplicated analog instruments but a single screen and if it's like my boat you are regularly having to scroll between pages to get vital info like coolant temp and oil pressure so yes it is important that these screens are located so that they can easily be operated from the helm seat (which they aren't on my boat). Also I'm surprised that you don't regularly zoom in and out on your plotter. No criticism intended but I find it useful to zoom in and out especially in trickier pilotage situations.
As you say, it wouldn't take much for boatbuilders to properly design helm stations so why not do it?

But why do you need those readings ? So you can make an interpretation of what is going on ? And software can't do it better? Why not have a preset/configurable pop up...Hopefully 95pct + of the time you don't need to know as all is fine, so why sit and stare Tell me when it isn't fine, why do I want to know it is fine !

 

[Dill et Bound]

I'll tell you if it ever happens. Don't wait around for my post though! Ref your last sentence and the implication that having/enjoying a bunch of electronics means you don't know what a chart is, ha bl00dy ha.

No I did nt actually mean it like that..

I am sure that you have all the equipment onboard to allow you to make a safe passage...

I embrace the new tec and interfacing, computer controlled functions, but for me, I go out on my boat to get away from all that.

I turn off my phone, cast off, and away I go.

I actually enjoy plotting my course, writing a log, taking bearings on landmarks,

Checking my tidal atlas, and watching the clouds for weather changes..

It gives me pleasure when it all comes together, and I arrive at my destination, or somewhere near..

Being able to tell where you are within a few feet any where in the northern hemisphere is fine, that is provided it is not relied on solely.

As said earlier in this thread I have a very nice Garmin sat on my dash, 2 if you count the back up interfaced to the radio for when I am using Sonar.

And to get back to the thread, although it seems that I am not too good at it, I would prefer to push a button..

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

But why do you need those readings ? So you can make an interpretation of what is going on ? And software can't do it better? Why not have a preset/configurable pop up...Hopefully 95pct + of the time you don't need to know as all is fine, so why sit and stare Tell me when it isn't fine, why do I want to know it is fine !

Call me a worrier then I like to scroll through all the instrument readings on a regular basis for my peace of mind. Apart from anything else it stops me getting bored

 

[Momac]

In my recent research for a new radar and the options available (see separate thread) it became apparent there is a trend towards touch screen displays for chartplotters, MFD's and all manner of nav instruments from the main players.

Personally I'm a bit alarmed by this. My personal, albeit perhaps a bit limited experience of touch screen displays (a few different phones, photocopier at work, and various random other displays in museums etc) has been less than positive.

They're either too sensitive, detecting the slightest glancing touch when you're moving your hand across the screen to point, look at, or select another option, or infuriatingly insensitive. Sometimes you can be pressing, holding, re-pressing several times before it gets the message. There's no deflection that you get with a button, so pressing harder doesn't work and they're just not as satisfying or quick. I also have doubts about long term reliability in a marine environment (although that's pure gut feel - I don't have any facts or hearsay to back it up).

For me, I prefer buttons every time. And I'm concerned that they're being phased out in favour of the i-generation technique.
Even the guy in the chandlery demonstrating them had difficulty selecting things on these new touch screen displays.

What do you think? Am I being a MOG (Miserable Old Git)? Or a Luddite?

I have recently bought a flybridge boat with no fitted navigation kit. I have had in mind a Rayarine A75 or a78 at the upper helm . Its modest frame of the touch screen compared to a push button set does mean it might be fit in the limited available space without needing a pod or an ugly bracket. I then had in mind using a tablet/ipad at the lower helm , linked by bluetooth to the fitted plotter. I had hoped to avoid the expense of two plotters.
I had assumed the plotter would function even if wet . But if a bit of water affects the touch screen do you think it would be better to have the plotter fitted at the lower helm in a flybridge boat ?

 

[Trundlebug]

I have recently bought a flybridge boat with no fitted navigation kit. I have had in mind a Rayarine A75 or a78 at the upper helm . Its modest frame of the touch screen compared to a push button set does mean it might be fit in the limited available space without needing a pod or an ugly bracket. I then had in mind using a tablet/ipad at the lower helm , linked by bluetooth to the fitted plotter. I had hoped to avoid the expense of two plotters.
I had assumed the plotter would function even if wet . But if a bit of water affects the touch screen do you think it would be better to have the plotter fitted at the lower helm in a flybridge boat ?

From reading some of the posts above I'm not sure water does affect plotter touchscreens too much, although perhaps it depends which make.
I'm not really the right person to answer I'm afraid..

 

[Trundlebug]

My preference on the helm station: that can be seen clearly at a glance
1. engine oil/temp gauges
2. fuel gauge
3. rev counters
4. engine management displays (i.e. mmds etc)
5. plotter (speed, dtw, ttw, heading etc)
6. radar (when needed) must be easy to view & interact with

Yep all of the above, and I agree especially about zooming in and out of the plotter particularly with AIS receiver in busy shipping areas (like along the Humber and Spurn area). Regular alterations are required - and the plotter needs to be within easy reach.

In addition, some key switches / controls not always thought about are
VHF Radio - when I first had the boat it was positioned about 5ft away!
Windscreen Wipers sw
Nav lights sw
Exhaust temps
Engine bay temp
Battery charge (volts & amps)
Traditional compass
Demister switches
Bilge pumps - visual info (as well as audible to draw initial attention)
Engine bay cams
Rudder position (OK not essential but nice to have)
Wind speed & direction

I too like to survey all the instruments, like Deleted User, partly through paranoia reassurance and partly through interest.
Although I get the point about just having a warning buzzer if something goes out of its parameters, you end up with the "Airplane!" situation of an alarm going off with a flashing light saying "A little hot". Not actually much use - whereas a gauge gives you the full picture at a glance.
You may think that's a bit ridiculous but I can tell you there is up to 15 deg C temperature difference in the exhaust temps between mid summer (now) and Easter when the water's so much cooler.
The normal parameters now are completely different from how they were at Easter.
In fact the starting temps were higher last weekend than they were at full operating temp at Easter!

I should also mention that I have a displacement boat so my passage times are that much longer than for you zoomy boys.
It recently took us 8 and a half hours from Grimsby to Scarborough, and 9 coming back.
Faster boats were taking less than 4 hours from Hull.

So you may (or may not) have the same needs e.g. Nav light switch. My speed is such that it can get dark on passage. You'd be already there!

 

[MapisM]

But what do you do if it all stops working?
Rush below for a fuse, or do you get out a chart..Big paper thing with useful stuff on..

LOL, you're saying this as if the typical route for all of us would be from San Diego to Hawaii, where a 3 degrees mistake means that after a 2k+ NM trip, instead of finding Big Island, you've got another 2k+ NM or so to reach the Marshalls.....!
I'll tell you what I would do in the event that ALL the electronics fail on my boat: I just keep going, looking either at visual references (of which I normally have plenty) or in absence of them, keeping the magnetic compass heading.
And looking at how deep is the blue in front of the bow, which is normally better than looking at the sounder even when it's working.
I would neither look for fuses nor for paper chart, why bother with that when you can just continue to enjoy the cruise?

Now, since the idea that paper charts are the ultimate boater lifeline is actually very common, let me suggest an alternative "what now, skip?".
You are cruising between literally hundreds of small islands, like in the Croatian archipelago.
The channels between each island are normally more than wide enough for cruising comfortably (never less than a hundred feet or so, but mostly 200+).
You've got the whole bunch of electronics, and also very accurate paper charts. The full monty.
In a matter of less than half an hour, the weather changes from just cloudy to torrential rain.
ZERO visibility - you can hardly see your own bow from the pilothouse. Even the radar struggles to separate the rain clutter from the coastlines.

Now, what do you do if it all stops working?
If your answer is get out a big paper thing, it's bound to be a toilet roll, because that's the only paper thing which might be of some use in such situation.
Incidentally, this is based on first hand experience - aside from the electronic failing bit, thanks God.
But IF I would have had neither a radar nor a plotter, I know what I would have done (and will tell later) but surely that has nothing to see with paper charts.

 

[MapisM]

Yes it does matter. You have omitted from your list electronic engine control screens.

Yup, agreed. I'm so used to dedicated analogue gauges that I forgot to even mention engine monitoring.
That said, if I should spec a new boat, I'd rather have one additional screen dedicated to that, leaving whatever I would want to look at always available.
Hence avoiding, also in this case, the need to constantly fiddle with buttons/trackballs/touchscreens/whatever.

Re. zooming, I see your point, and I can't pretend to NEVER use zoom on the plotter while helming, but that's extremely rare indeed.
In fact, whenever I want to check maps for evaluating pilotage, alternatives, etc., I rather leave swmbo on watch and take care of that stuff on my PC.
In my mind, ideally, the only concern of whoever is at the helm of a boat should be avoiding to hit some hard stuff.
Which you can't do, if you need to keep your eyes on any screen, regardless of whether it's a PC or a MFD...

 

[Bazzer]

I have recently bought a flybridge boat with no fitted navigation kit. I have had in mind a Rayarine A75 or a78 at the upper helm . Its modest frame of the touch screen compared to a push button set does mean it might be fit in the limited available space without needing a pod or an ugly bracket. I then had in mind using a tablet/ipad at the lower helm , linked by bluetooth to the fitted plotter. I had hoped to avoid the expense of two plotters.
I had assumed the plotter would function even if wet . But if a bit of water affects the touch screen do you think it would be better to have the plotter fitted at the lower helm in a flybridge boat ?

I have a couple of Furuno Navnet 3d displays for sale if you are interested, both in perfect working order at a greatly reduced price. PM me

 

[Dill et Bound]

[QUOTE
In a matter of less than half an hour, the weather changes from just cloudy to torrential rain.
ZERO visibility - you can hardly see your own bow from the pilothouse. Even the radar struggles to separate the rain clutter from the coastlines.

Now, what do you do if it all stops working?
If your answer is get out a big paper thing, it's bound to be a toilet roll, because that's the only paper thing which might be of some use in such situation.
Incidentally, this is based on first hand experience - aside from the electronic failing bit, thanks God.
But IF I would have had neither a radar nor a plotter, I know what I would have done (and will tell later) but surely that has nothing to see with paper charts.[/QUOTE]

And thats the thing..
You would be reaching for the toilet roll, whilst I would be using my chart and lead and line to navigate to a safe passage using my soundings..
And in the situation that you described any body would struggle, and I am glad it turned out ok for you.
I suppose that as when I started boating I did nt have anything other than a compass, an Seafarer depth sounder that wizzed round and sometimes gave you a depth, and an old Sailor DF set, that was nt too accurate, as you needed to have your exact course you were steering at the time in order to work out the bearing to the Beacon, and I always got to where I wanted, I never really saw the need to upgrade.. I had a Decca set on the boat in the 80s, next to useless.. Getting your sextant out just before midday on a long passage, and the calculus , afterwards whiles away an hour or so, but cross channel, and trips up to the Netherlands and Baltic, you would be mostly in sight of land.
Nowhere to land though, Very few marinas in those days. Hamble River was just mudflats once past Fairy Marine up to Universal and on to Moodys, just Piles. Harbours shared with other shipping, rafted up alongside walls for days waiting for a break in the weather..

As said before, I embrace new technology, but being able to navigate without it is really works for me.. And I still prefer buttons to press..

 

[Momac]

From reading some of the posts above I'm not sure water does affect plotter touchscreens too much, although perhaps it depends which make.
I'm not really the right person to answer I'm afraid..

You are almost certainly more of an expert than me . I am not against spending on the right kit but I am nervous about buying something that doesn't do the job.

 

[pan]

Although some think that having an array of analogue dials is simply 'macho', I can assure you that the human eye detects changes in an analogue display better than any digital readout, it's not about knowing whether the engine water temp is 84 or 86 deg, it's about whether it is changing (same goes for oil pressure) and you will notice even with a glance without having to think 'what was the temp/pressure last time I looked' Even the latest Airbus has numerous analogue displays.

In any case you are the skipper, what works for you is most important, not what anyone else thinks, after all you are one responsible & will have to deal with whatever happens. I prefer to stick with what I am comfortable with.

 

[MapisM]

I would be using my chart and lead and line to navigate to a safe passage using my soundings

With small islands all around you, totally irregular channels between them, where 100 FEET can make the difference between staying afloat or going aground?
Tell me that you are joking, because the fact that I've not used paper charts for at least a couple of decades doesn't mean that I've not used charts at all.
And that I'm not aware of what you can or can't get out of them, you know.

Trust me, in the situation I described, the only thing which could have allowed you to continue the navigation with a decent degree of safety was a properly functioning radar+plotter. Together with the capacity to use/read them, of course.
In fact, imho the lack of practice/capacity which is more objectionable among modern boaters is in fully exploiting what the electronic instruments can offer (particularly the radar), rather than in not using paper charts. But I digress.

My answer to what I would have done in that situation, assuming to have no instrument support, is very simple: drop the hook PDQ, and wait for better visibility conditions.
If anyone can think of a better strategy, I'm VERY curious to hear it, but only as long as paper charts are not even mentioned - at least not for anything else than some sort of practical joke!

Btw, obviously this debate is o/t vs. the TS interface discussion.
I can't see why you insist on "still preferring buttons to press", after having drifted towards paper charts...
Also because my post #56, to which you replied, was not meant to support the TS interface.
Rather the opposite, to some extent: in a nutshell, my point was that neither the interface nor the dashboard ergonomics are so critical for navigation, because the NEED for playing with instrument controls is actually pretty rare, while cruising.

 

[jfm]

If anyone can think of a better strategy, I'm VERY curious to hear it,

I totally agree. Its important to remember that these paper charts that some people love have very many limitations of their own. When I read your monsoon scenario I thought "stop the boat and stay put". I might stop but stay underway, as opposed to anchor, but that is splitting hairs and depends on all the detailed circs.

This happened to me last year and by luck I had my cousin on board who is an excellent sailor. We were in sunny weather near islands/rocks. A huge monsoon rain arrived and wind rose to fully 45kts on the gauge (with almost no waves of course: there was no fetch and no "time fetch"). Many people were caught out and we did some rescuing after the worst of the storm had passed. As regards nav, I know the waters well but the monsoon rain density made it like fog so I could see my pulpit only just, and the clever digital radar showed solid red on the screen ie useless. What we did was to put the fog horn on, know our position on the plotter (which is way better than paper) and stay still underway but not anchored. My cousin stood on the flybridge (drenched) doing a mark 1 eyeball lookout.

Our logic was that we were not in Bangladesh so this rain density can only last 15 mins. I can assure you that paper charts, which I had right there in my chart drawer, played no part in proceedings!. I cannot think of any single use we could put them to, except cut into squares in the heads

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

My answer to what I would have done in that situation, assuming to have no instrument support, is very simple: drop the hook PDQ, and wait for better visibility conditions.
If anyone can think of a better strategy, I'm VERY curious to hear it, but only as long as paper charts are not even mentioned - at least not for anything else than some sort of practical joke!

There is one other possible strategy and that is to try to follow a depth contour in conjunction with the paper chart. This is a relatively safe strategy in areas where depths change gradually but in areas like Croatia where depths can change suddenly, I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that. In Croatia where there are so many lumps of rock to hit, I agree with you; the only really safe strategy is to drop the anchor

 

[MapisM]

Well, the question from DeB was about what to do "if it ALL stops working", hence not even the sounder, I suppose.
But I see what you mean of course, and couldn't agree more.