Touch screen nav displays. Fashion or function?

[Bazzer]

What frustrates me is that many / most touch screen devices are resistive I.e. does not support two finger commands such as pinch to zoom etc. I am too used to charts on tablets etc, which makes it difficult to go back to "old style" touch screens on chart plotters.

Try the Furuno TZ touch, multiple finger tap, i.e. two fingers tapped on the screen bring up the main menu.

 

[Trundlebug]

Perhaps SS have the next generation: Reach Screens...

 

[Bazzer]

You'd get KFC fat on your screen and you could wipe it off. That's better than what happens currently, which is that the KFC fat oozes down the edges of all your buttons, forever to go mouldy and feed bacteria in all those 0.1mm gaps- niiiiice!

have we got a drive through in the solent, where ????

 

[jfm]

Try the Furuno TZ touch, multiple finger tap, i.e. two fingers tapped on the screen bring up the main menu.

Yup indeed. The problem is what is on the menu when you bring it up. I spent ages evaluating TZ and talking to their Dan guy but they refused to include displays for engine data. They said they were a nav company not an engine data display company. I explained how short sighted that was and how the skipper needs to manage the engines and the fuel as part of "nav", but they wouldn't listen, so I bought Garmin 8000 which has pages that display loads of engine data and integrate engine data with nav (to give litres-per-mile fuel burn, fe). A year or so after they introduced TZ, Furuno did end up adding some engine pages I'm told, but not with full vigour...

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

The designers just do not have any clue about running a boat on passage properly. This lack of sense isn't exclusive to sunseeker by any means: the boats where you cannot touch the touchscreen from the helm chair might even be in the majority

Agreed. You know my views on Ferretti helms which seem almost to be deliberately badly designed and I see plenty of boat helms on other manufacturers' boats which are an ergonomic disaster zone (one or 2 designed by Mr Marsh from MBY who really ought to know better). All boat designers should be sent on extended cruises with experienced owners so those owners can point out to them just how awful their designs are. Certainly boat ergonomics are light years behind car ergonomics

 

[jfm]

have we got a drive through in the solent, where ????

I don't know but we have one in the Lerins Islands near Cannes. A girl in a RIB comes round with pizza, ice cream etc during the day, and delivers fresh croissant and OJ the next morning

 

[Trundlebug]

Actually I think a form of IDrive would be great on a boat provided the IDrive controller was located somewhere convenient to hand like on the helm seat armrest or an adjacent panel. IMHO not having to reach out or even leave the helm seat to touch a screen or press a button would be a major plus. I suppose something like this has been done already on a boat but I haven't seen it on a mainstream production boat yet

Not iDrive but touchscreen master controls have been fitted on a new boat I read a test on recently - think it was the new Broom.
You have to go through 3 menus to turn the wipers on - and again to turn them off again.
Greeaat.

Although I still can't believe they don't seem to fit intermittent wipe on boats, when it's been standard for years on even the basic of cars.
(They may well do now of course, I'm not too familiar with the latest boat specs)
I retrofitted it on my boat - (1988)

 

[jfm]

All boat designers should be sent on extended cruises with experienced owners so those owners can point out to them just how awful their designs are.

Yup, but alas this hardly ever happens. I took the Fairline guy who did much of the design on Match 1 on a long trip of about 5 days and 400nm (he was a really nice guy) and he learnt quite a lot about running a boat: getting lots of food to the tables fast, how big the watermaker should be, the size needed for mooring gear, why you need a 600mm dishwasher not a 450, benefits of internal stairs, how bright LEDs in light switches are annoying at night, and so on. Boat builders and two-hour testers like Marsh have no idea about how a boat needs to be set up so that you can host say 8 people on a boat for 5 days and make the whole trip work

 

[jfm]

Not iDrive but touchscreen master controls have been fitted on a new boat I read a test on recently - think it was the new Broom.
You have to go through 3 menus to turn the wipers on - and again to turn them off again.
Greeaat.

Although I still can't believe they don't seem to fit intermittent wipe on boats, when it's been standard for years on even the basic of cars.

I agree that's rubbish. (I have rocker switches, plus a dial to alter the sweep speed AND the interval timer on intermittent, by the way!)

 

[Trundlebug]

I agree that's rubbish. (I have rocker switches, plus a dial to alter the sweep speed AND the interval timer on intermittent, by the way!)

Impressive - but then I wouldn't expect anything less from you!
Have to admit, sweep speed AND interval variation rather beats my Maplins interval timer (c/w umpteen diodes to stop comical backfeed self park issues)

I can reach the switch and interval adjustment easily, I'm pleased to say!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

two-hour testers like Marsh have no idea about how a boat needs to be set up so that you can host say 8 people on a boat for 5 days and make the whole trip work

I was reading in this month's MBM that their chief tester has never actually been across the Channel in a boat before until recently

 

[jfm]

I think Nick has just got himself a new boat so he will be out and about a bit more in the future Actually, crossing the channel zero or a zillion times perhaps misses the point. When you actually buy a boat as opposed to merely test drive it you become the guy who hosts the party, and needs that party to work not crash. Now that involves non boat things (food and wine and nice people) but it also involves many boat things as well, including how to cook that food, for example. Take the Princess 82 which MBY have praised. This £3m boat has fantastic accomm and the 8 guests plus 2 crew will sleep well and have dinners at big sociable tables. But those dinners will be just pizza because the boat's ONLY oven is a microwave sized thing you'd have in a City batchelor pad, ffs:

Actually your problem wont be cooking the food; it will be persuading a chef even to take the job in the first place. And maybe that's a blessing in disguise because if 8 people did have a proper meal you'd then need a proper dishwasher which guess what, this £3m boat doesn't have. I know I'm ranting but the mags should report this stuff, and pressurise the builders to do better

Much of the functionality you need in a boat applies while it is stopped, not underway. I have over the years thought Marshy has little clue about all this as he tells us the boat "handles" well. He doesn't for example ever say (that I can recall, and I'll happily be corrected) that such and such a boat has xxx BTU/hr of airco and that isn't enough, but when you actually buy the thing you'll sure as hell find out the hard way if it isn't enough and wouldn't it be better if the mags informed you about this? Likewise he doesn't name and shame builders using incandescent lights in 2014 or cheapie LEDs, nor tell us if the mattresses have slats under them and all that sort of stuff. And there is no way he will tell you whether the door catches are F+S or Sugatsune! And he certainly praises dashboards that I think don't deserve it, as per this thread. Ho hum!

 

[jfm]

Impressive - but then I wouldn't expect anything less from you!
Have to admit, sweep speed AND interval variation rather beats my Maplins interval timer

Actually, a choice of 3 speeds and 3 intermittent intervals, all selected ergonomically via one knob, is std spec for Fairline on the 78. I didn't need to spec anything. They install a little box of maplin-esque bits all nicely soldered together and put in a box with transparent lid, old schoolishly, behind the dash. I love it!

 

[pan]

I have to agree whole heartedly with the slight thread drift, simply taking a new boat out for a thrash in rough/smooth seas only gives a small part of the relative merits. Modern craft are highly sophisticated where aircon, fresh water tanks, galley equipment, generators etc etc are very important for living aboard, lets face it, the boat is probably used at rest 9 out of 10 hours!! So comfort & functionality of the ancillaries is critical (if swmbo isn't happy, neither is the skipper!), testing in the mags has to be much more comprehensive to be of any use to a prospective buyer.

Most instrument panels, especially on the flybridge, are an ergonomic joke, usually angled so the helmsman cannot read plotter & dials because of the reflection of the sun, most largish mobos are helmed 90% of the time on autopilot, what the skipper wants is to easily monitor all the instruments & easily work with the plotter/radar. Noted JFM's comment about the Fairline designer, it amazes me that the major boat builders don't ensure their designers spend some time aboard the last models, before they design the new ones!

 

[jfm]

Noted JFM's comment about the Fairline designer, it amazes me that the major boat builders don't ensure their designers spend some time aboard the last models, before they design the new ones!

As a practical matter, it is hard to do. Most big boats are built to order or have an owner before launch, so there is no way the builder's design team can take it on a boozy swimming jolly with their mates, even though that is the EXACT purpose of the thing. Occasionally an ownerless stock boat comes along but again if it is taken on a jolly it sort of becomes secondhand. So you need actual boat owners folks to become friends of boatbuilder folks by happenstance, and invite them along

 

[MapisM]

I'm surprised/intrigued by the consensus on the importance of ergonomics on boat dashboards.
I mean, yes, the points which were raised are all valid. And in most cases, making better dashboards would not even be more expensive for the builder, so there's really no excuse/explanation for taking care only of form rather than function.

BUT, I wonder, does it really matter?
Maybe it has to see with the fact that I'm used to deal with navigation planning on the PC, but while cruising I never felt really restricted by the fact that my onboard electronics are mid nineties stuff - which is like saying B.C., in the context of this debate.
In fact, there are just a very few controls that I normally use while cruising, and I'd be curious to hear which other bits you folks think are necessary (or even just very useful), and why.
As an aside, in none of several times when I've had the opportunity to be on a ship command bridge, I've ever seen anyone playing with the screens controls/settings, though I accept that this is a sort of apples/oranges comparison.

Back to the point, let's see.
The instruments/controls I actually use are as follows - with one caveat: I usually start my trip with the route already plotted, and yes, on an old plotter is more of a PITA to change the route along the way, if compared to more modern stuf, but hey ho. No big deal, anyway.
1) echosounder: nothing - just left on, with auto range;
2) plotter: nothing - yes, nothing, not even zoom. I just leave it on, with autozoom based on the next WP. I accept that fingerpointing at other vessels to highlight their CPA etc. is something nice to have, and I would have probably used it in several occasions, but I don't have the AIS. And I'm still afloat, touch wood...
3) radar: gain, range, VRM, EBL. This is imho the only instrument really demanding the use of several controls, to get meaningful indications out of it. But being mostly a fair weather cruiser (as most around here are, I reckon, but correct me if I'm wrong), 95% of the time I actually just leave it in standby.
4) autopilot: left on track most of the time, temporarily switching to auto for slight route adjustments, if and when needed to avoid hitting supertankers and the likes (by a steering a few degrees not just to stbd, but also to port, heaven forbid! ).

Mmm... Yes, I think that's just about it.
Bottom line, as I said previously, yes, of course a properly designed TS interface (mated with a good dashboard design) is nicer.
But how much can it improve the helming experience, on a 1 to 100 scale?
'fiuaskme, I'm in doubt about my vote, but one thing is for sure: one digit is enough.

 

[pan]

As a practical matter, it is hard to do. Most big boats are built to order or have an owner before launch, so there is no way the builder's design team can take it on a boozy swimming jolly with their mates, even though that is the EXACT purpose of the thing. Occasionally an ownerless stock boat comes along but again if it is taken on a jolly it sort of becomes secondhand. So you need actual boat owners folks to become friends of boatbuilder folks by happenstance, and invite them along

My point was really directed at more production boats, where say they are replacing the 'xxx 50ft' with the new super 'xxx 55ft', essentially the same hull etc, but with the new interior design & external extras, one boat I have in mind has a terrible re-design of the lower helm to the point where it's almost impossible to helm from because the instrument pod is set too high. (the original model instrument pod was excellent) just an example. No reason why a designer/builder could not find one of the original models to discover the usability, good & bad design!

 

[pan]

I'm surprised/intrigued by the consensus on the importance of ergonomics on boat dashboards.
I mean, yes, the points which were raised are all valid. And in most cases, making better dashboards would not even be more expensive for the builder, so there's really no excuse/explanation for taking care only of form rather than function.

BUT, I wonder, does it really matter?
Maybe it has to see with the fact that I'm used to deal with navigation planning on the PC, but while cruising I never felt really restricted by the fact that my onboard electronics are mid nineties stuff - which is like saying B.C., in the context of this debate.
In fact, there are just a very few controls that I normally use while cruising, and I'd be curious to hear which other bits you folks think are necessary (or even just very useful), and why.
As an aside, in none of several times when I've had the opportunity to be on a ship command bridge, I've ever seen anyone playing with the screens controls/settings, though I accept that this is a sort of apples/oranges comparison.

Back to the point, let's see.
The instruments/controls I actually use are as follows - with one caveat: I usually start my trip with the route already plotted, and yes, on an old plotter is more of a PITA to change the route along the way, if compared to more modern stuf, but hey ho. No big deal, anyway.
1) echosounder: nothing - just left on, with auto range;
2) plotter: nothing - yes, nothing, not even zoom. I just leave it on, with autozoom based on the next WP. I accept that fingerpointing at other vessels to highlight their CPA etc. is something nice to have, and I would have probably used it in several occasions, but I don't have the AIS. And I'm still afloat, touch wood...
3) radar: gain, range, VRM, EBL. This is imho the only instrument really demanding the use of several controls, to get meaningful indications out of it. But being mostly a fair weather cruiser (as most around here are, I reckon, but correct me if I'm wrong), 95% of the time I actually just leave it in standby.
4) autopilot: left on track most of the time, temporarily switching to auto for slight route adjustments, if and when needed to avoid hitting supertankers and the likes (by a steering a few degrees not just to stbd, but also to port, heaven forbid! ).

My preference on the helm station: that can be seen clearly at a glance
1. engine oil/temp gauges
2. fuel gauge
3. rev counters
4. engine management displays (i.e. mmds etc)
5. plotter (speed, dtw, ttw, heading etc)
6. radar (when needed) must be easy to view & interact with

Without even thinking about them, most skippers notice changes in gauge needle positions, hopefully noticing changes before they become critical (but if you can't see them because of reflections, they are useless)

 

[Dill et Bound]

I'm surprised/intrigued by the consensus on the importance of ergonomics on boat dashboards.
I mean, yes, the points which were raised are all valid. And in most cases, making better dashboards would not even be more expensive for the builder, so there's really no excuse/explanation for taking care only of form rather than function.

BUT, I wonder, does it really matter?
Maybe it has to see with the fact that I'm used to deal with navigation planning on the PC, but while cruising I never felt really restricted by the fact that my onboard electronics are mid nineties stuff - which is like saying B.C., in the context of this debate.
In fact, there are just a very few controls that I normally use while cruising, and I'd be curious to hear which other bits you folks think are necessary (or even just very useful), and why.
As an aside, in none of several times when I've had the opportunity to be on a ship command bridge, I've ever seen anyone playing with the screens controls/settings, though I accept that this is a sort of apples/oranges comparison.

Back to the point, let's see.
The instruments/controls I actually use are as follows - with one caveat: I usually start my trip with the route already plotted, and yes, on an old plotter is more of a PITA to change the route along the way, if compared to more modern stuf, but hey ho. No big deal, anyway.
1) echosounder: nothing - just left on, with auto range;
2) plotter: nothing - yes, nothing, not even zoom. I just leave it on, with autozoom based on the next WP. I accept that fingerpointing at other vessels to highlight their CPA etc. is something nice to have, and I would have probably used it in several occasions, but I don't have the AIS. And I'm still afloat, touch wood...
3) radar: gain, range, VRM, EBL. This is imho the only instrument really demanding the use of several controls, to get meaningful indications out of it. But being mostly a fair weather cruiser (as most around here are, I reckon, but correct me if I'm wrong), 95% of the time I actually just leave it in standby.
4) autopilot: left on track most of the time, temporarily switching to auto for slight route adjustments, if and when needed to avoid hitting supertankers and the likes (by a steering a few degrees not just to stbd, but also to port, heaven forbid! ).

Mmm... Yes, I think that's just about it.
Bottom line, as I said previously, yes, of course a properly designed TS interface (mated with a good dashboard design) is nicer.
But how much can it improve the helming experience, on a 1 to 100 scale?
'fiuaskme, I'm in doubt about my vote, but one thing is for sure: one digit is enough.

But what do you do if it all stops working?
Rush below for a fuse, or do you get out a chart..Big paper thing with useful stuff on..

 

[gjgm]

Yea but do we really need all these sexy dials and gauges and fancy readouts...you might get them on a supercar,but on a boat why not omit them for some pop up alarm...you set the parameter..oil pressure down 5 PCT or...I want to know if it goes wrong not that it is going right if you get my point