Touch screen nav displays. Fashion or function?

[MikeBz]

The boat we bought this year came with a recent Raymarine HybridTouch plotter (E7D I think). It drives me crackers, to the point where it is 100 times easier to leave it off and use the Navionics iPhone app... The touch screen needs to be calibrated every time it is switched on, most times the simple calibration sequence fails and makes you do the long version (try doing that underway in any kind of non-billiard-table-smooth conditions) and try as I might I can't find much in the way of basic useful features through the buttons (maybe need to read the manual a bit harder). I go sailing to relax not get angry with electronic instruments and screens (I spend all my working hours doing that). Grrrrrrr.

Rant over. For now!

 

[jfm]

I've tried several touchscreens on previous boats (raymarine e140W and Garmin 5000) and currently have garmin 8000 plus one Raymarine a67. Before that I had years worth of buttoned plotters. I love touchscreen and wouldn't go back to buttons. There are so many functions now that buttons don't work unless you have millions of them, or millions of presses. I completely do not share the view that touchscreens are hard to use in a moving boat. I even have one in my bouncy tender and you just steady your hand on the dashboard and touch the relevant bit of the screen

I did have the calibration issue MikeBz refers to above, but only with earlier Raymarine. The new stuff is fine. The comparison with pressure based touchscreens like on photocopiers is completely wrong - these latest screens work on capacitance, like iPhone etc

I love them; wouldn't change back to buttons. In my book the leaders are Garmin 8000 and Furuno Tz, in that order.

All that said, with touch screens you do need to be able to touch them. Look at sunseeker dashboards and the big Princesses (I have the 82 fly in mind). You have to get out of your chair and walk forwards to touch the screens. That's rubbish. You might as well fit an old-model MFD and have a buttoned remote like the G series from Raymarine 2007 ish. Boatbuilders need to play their part in creating good helm stations too

 

[Spi D]

Try "touching" accurately when out in a chop. It's like trying to thread a needle!!!

+1

My latest upgrade was a chartplotter without touch for the same reason (supported by a lower price).

 

[jfm]

+1

My latest upgrade was a chartplotter without touch for the same reason (supported by a lower price).

I totally don't get this. You just steady your hand on the dashboard or whatever, as you touch the screen. I see no difficulty in this even in my 35 knot 4.3m tender, which bounces around plenty

 

[gjgm]

I totally don't get this. You just steady your hand on the dashboard or whatever, as you touch the screen. I see no difficulty in this even in my 35 knot 4.3m tender, which bounces around plenty

Actually, the only drawback I have found is if you are wearing gloves. I have tried the finger tipped screen compatible ones, but I end up taking the glove off.

 

[Robin]

I totally don't get this. You just steady your hand on the dashboard or whatever, as you touch the screen. I see no difficulty in this even in my 35 knot 4.3m tender, which bounces around plenty

and you have now just placed a MOB wpt where your steadying hand finger was if like ours the plotter is in a nav pod . I took advice from lots of local users before selecting the Garmin model option with buttons over the touch screen one. OK this is on a saily boat that might bounce around a bit more .

the trend towards touch screen displays and controls on cars worries me too. We have a GPS screen in the car that is unreadable in bright sunlight and the thought of something similar for the lights and other car controls etc is frightening, but it is very much the trend here in the USA. you can 'feel' for a switch whilst still keeping you eyes on the road, not so with a touch screen display. seems to me the touch screen makers are promoting their products to the hilt, as they would, and today's Iphone generations lap it up big time.

 

[jfm]

and you have now just placed a MOB wpt where your steadying hand finger was

Well no I haven't, ever, despite using touchscreens full time since 2009 (I had three Raymarine E140Ws, three boats ago) I do not understand how a navpod changes things

I'm happy to accept that this is an "each to their own" thing, but the quantity of touchscreen dislike in this thread does surprise me. I just wouldn't install anything else now but Garmin touch (or Furuno TZ, once they overcome some of their prejudices, which they are doing slowly). Combined as I said with dashboard ergonomics where you can touch the screen while staying in your seat

I don't like touchscreens on cars. In my book the best human interface in a fast car is BMW's iDrive combined sometimes with voice. But that's a whole different debate

 

[MikeBz]

Well if anyone else stumbles across this thread because they've been driven mad by their e7D touchscreen, there is hope - Raymarine have acknowledged a fault with this product and can repair it: http://raymarine.ning.com/forum/topics/e7d-loses-touch-screen-calibration. I'll send mine off this winter.

 

[Robin]

Well no I haven't, ever, despite using touchscreens full time since 2009 (I had three Raymarine E140Ws, three boats ago) I do not understand how a navpod changes things

I'm happy to accept that this is an "each to their own" thing, but the quantity of touchscreen dislike in this thread does surprise me. I just wouldn't install anything else now but Garmin touch (or Furuno TZ, once they overcome some of their prejudices, which they are doing slowly). Combined as I said with dashboard ergonomics where you can touch the screen while staying in your seat

I don't like touchscreens on cars. In my book the best human interface in a fast car is BMW's iDrive combined sometimes with voice. But that's a whole different debate

Because our plotter/radar display on a sailing boat is in a navpod mounted on the cabin top and when the boat pitches if you are not standing behind the wheel pedestal and holding onto that then the natural thing is to hold the navpod to maintain your balance... I can't use my smartphone touchscreen in the car when SWMBo is driving either, If I do I get all sorts of apps opening unasked.

 

[DAW]

I’m a big fan of the Raymarine HybridTouch MFD screens and recently installed two e125s alongside two i70s and a p70r autopilot as part of a complete electronics refit on a Sunseeker Portofino 53.

I have the open cockpit version with no hard top, so was a bit worried about being open to the elements with touchscreens. However, so far I’ve had no problems due to either weather or spray and agree with others that you can normally steady yourself enough to use the screens without the need to resort to the dial and buttons whatever the conditions. I’ve certainly had no problems with the touchscreens at speeds of 25-30 knots in some quite bouncy conditions.

I looked at Garmin, Furuno, etc. and think they probably have the edge in terms of functionality and ease of use, but in the end I chose Raymarine because it’s what I already had on the boat and what the local installer was most familiar with.

So far I’m very happy and have no complaints. In practice, I’ve found I use both touchscreen and buttons together – some things seem more intuitive on the touchscreen and some things are quicker/easier or just seem to work better using the buttons and the dial.

 

[Dill et Bound]

All you have to do is touch the screen ? then the whole menu comes up, so much easier than the old buttons !! if you are talking about planning routes then yes it is dificult when there is chop, but that is the case with buttons as well and to be honest i generally plan my route before i go to sea.

Problem is that whilst the planning before you go works well in principal..
As soon as you cast off you are at the mercy of the elements, which as we all know puts planning completely out the window..
Fog, Shipping, Wind over tide,
Steering any boat whilst moving at any speed over water with a fingertip to control a device is a nightmare...
Buttons for me everytime I am afraid..
Garmin... Please could you make the on off switch, not the control for the dimmer on the screen.. I turn it off when trying to dim it.
Designer probably not a boater, as is probably the case with lots of touchscreen devices..

 

[EugeneR]

What frustrates me is that many / most touch screen devices are resistive I.e. does not support two finger commands such as pinch to zoom etc. I am too used to charts on tablets etc, which makes it difficult to go back to "old style" touch screens on chart plotters.

 

[bumpy_the_dog]

SWMBO has a touch screen satnav in her car. Now she never sweats, never eats in the car, and has long manicured fingers; but her touch screen looks like it's had a fish and chip supper wiped all over it.

So if that's the effect a barely human stepford wife has, then what would KFC eating, sausage fingered me do a touch screen?

 

[jfm]

Garmin... Please could you make the on off switch, not the control for the dimmer on the screen.. I turn it off when trying to dim it.

Um, there is no easy way to say this but the problem is you not Garmin. I have had literally dozens of Garmin devices with this feature and it is a very smart solution for any user who has even a small helping of dexterity!

 

[jfm]

What frustrates me is that many / most touch screen devices are resistive I.e. does not support two finger commands such as pinch to zoom etc. I am too used to charts on tablets etc, which makes it difficult to go back to "old style" touch screens on chart plotters.

Garmin 8xxx and Furuno TZ are (and have been for >a year) tablet-like with pinch-to-zoom and suchlike motions. I think Raymarine might be too by now, but I'm not sure

While on the subject of Garmin, their new Garminhelm iPad app is brilliant. You can have one or many iPads that just mimic and control any 8000 series plotter you have on board. So if you have one 8xxx on the flybr and one at lower helm, you now have 2 in each station for the price of an iPad and the router. ALL the touch features work on the iPad screen, so the iPad is in effect the same thing as the 8xxx built in unit you have linked it to (apart from bright sun viz). You can do everything: change the view, MARPA a target, pull up video feed, everything. And you can literally steer the boat on passage from the foredeck sunbathing cushions. If you have multiple 8xxx screens you can choose which one your iPad mimics instantly on the fly with 3 screen touches. it really is excellent

 

[jfm]

what would KFC eating, sausage fingered me do a touch screen?

You'd get KFC fat on your screen and you could wipe it off. That's better than what happens currently, which is that the KFC fat oozes down the edges of all your buttons, forever to go mouldy and feed bacteria in all those 0.1mm gaps- niiiiice!

 

[jfm]

the natural thing is to hold the navpod to maintain your balance...

You're moving the goalposts around. We were very clearly talking about steading your hand in a bouncing boat before pressing the touchscreen, not using the plotter/pod as a grab handle when you get caught off balance. Anyway, granted, users who want to grab the thing like a grab handle are best without touchscreens.

 

[Trundlebug]

I've tried several touchscreens on previous boats (raymarine e140W and Garmin 5000) and currently have garmin 8000 plus one Raymarine a67. Before that I had years worth of buttoned plotters. I love touchscreen and wouldn't go back to buttons. There are so many functions now that buttons don't work unless you have millions of them, or millions of presses. I completely do not share the view that touchscreens are hard to use in a moving boat. I even have one in my bouncy tender and you just steady your hand on the dashboard and touch the relevant bit of the screen

All that said, with touch screens you do need to be able to touch them. Look at sunseeker dashboards and the big Princesses (I have the 82 fly in mind). You have to get out of your chair and walk forwards to touch the screens. That's rubbish. You might as well fit an old-model MFD and have a buttoned remote like the G series from Raymarine 2007 ish. Boatbuilders need to play their part in creating good helm stations too

Interesting feedback jfm as always.
Perhaps my experiences have been with early stuff and it would appear latest generation top of the range stuff is somewhat better.
Let's hope the improvements work their way down the product range to the affordable versions soon then :encouragement:
(My limited experience of a Raymarine a67 demo wasn't the most impressive though - although I admit my prejudice)

As regards helm design, as you say that's just poor ergonomics.
Any competent engineer would include good ergonomics as a given.
It often makes me wonder if helms are actually "designed" by a stylist or artist to look good - there are just far too many "designers" around who studied art but don't have the first clue about engineering (i.e. real) functional design.

I'm afraid I disagree strongly about BMW's iDrive though - unless it's improved dramatically since my unfortunate experience.
I had a 2006 530d and although the steering wheel had some control buttons only a couple worked (possibly base model?).
The radio, the worst in any car I've owned, when set to traffic announcements needed a hand off the steering, all the way over to the i-drive, twiddle one soft click to the left on the ultra-sensitive knob, then one click back again to change channel and reset the TA.

Not easy when motoring at pace on busy motorways without taking the eyes off the road.
My previous Mondeo (2002) required a single click with the 3rd finger without even taking a hand off the wheel.
Now that's ergonomics.

 

[jfm]

Interesting feedback jfm as always.
Perhaps my experiences have been with early stuff and it would appear latest generation top of the range stuff is somewhat better.
Let's hope the improvements work their way down the product range to the affordable versions soon then :encouragement:
(My limited experience of a Raymarine a67 demo wasn't the most impressive though - although I admit my prejudice)

As regards helm design, as you say that's just poor ergonomics.
Any competent engineer would include good ergonomics as a given.
It often makes me wonder if helms are actually "designed" by a stylist or artist to look good - there are just far too many "designers" around who studied art but don't have the first clue about engineering (i.e. real) functional design.

I'm afraid I disagree strongly about BMW's iDrive though - unless it's improved dramatically since my unfortunate experience.
I had a 2006 530d and although the steering wheel had some control buttons only a couple worked (possibly base model?).
The radio, the worst in any car I've owned, when set to traffic announcements needed a hand off the steering, all the way over to the i-drive, twiddle one soft click to the left on the ultra-sensitive knob, then one click back again to change channel and reset the TA.

Not easy when motoring at pace on busy motorways without taking the eyes off the road.
My previous Mondeo (2002) required a single click with the 3rd finger without even taking a hand off the wheel.
Now that's ergonomics.

Yes the a67 isn't the last word in boat plotters, but it is all I could fit on my tender dash(!) and is generally ok imho
I'm going to disagree on Chris Bangle's iDrive though! I had a 2005 e60M5 and only (and with heavy heart) let it go recently, and I found the iDrive fantastic. You could do most things from memory without looking at the screen, and the feedback resistance of the iDrive knob communicated back to you. As for the music generally, the subwoofered bla bla system on the M5 was rated at the time by one of the audiophile mags as the finest hi fi ever factory installed in a car and I suspect they were right. Actually for the very common task of wanting silence the steering wheel on M5 had a soft key programmable by user and you could if you want set that to silence the nav/traffic. The other quick option was to twiddle the volume knob on the dash or the steering wheel while any announcement was being made (whether nav instructions or TA) and that would instantly set the volume for that form of announcement.

The ergonomics with a car of wanting to let the driver do more and more things without taking his eyes off road or focussing eyeballs to a close distance are of course completely different from the ergonomic needs of a boat, where things happen much more slowly and the need is for the CORRECT helmsman decision not a FAST decision. Take the pic below which is a sunseeker pred 84 current model. Sunseeker make some lovely machines but this dash is just a pile junk. They have put a bunch of carling switches in front of the helmsman for boring stuff like nav lights then shoved the screens far away so that you haven't any hope of touching them. The only nav kit I'd install in this boat is Garmin 8000 then at least you can use the iPad app to control the screens, but I'd prefer just to remake the whole dashboard. The designers just do not have any clue about running a boat on passage properly. This lack of sense isn't exclusive to sunseeker by any means: the boats where you cannot touch the touchscreen from the helm chair might even be in the majority

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I'm afraid I disagree strongly about BMW's iDrive though - unless it's improved dramatically since my unfortunate experience.

Apologies for fred drift but I'm going to support IDrive here. I had one of the first BMWs fitted with IDrive, a E65 730d (great car despite its looks) and the IDrive on that was a nightmare to begin with but once I got my head around the menus, actually it wasn't difficult to use and by the end of my ownership of the car, I quite liked it. Of course later IDrive iterations have become more user friendly and the IDrive on the SWMBO's X3 is almost intuitive. I don't think BMW could be blamed for the early IDrive because cars were always going to get more complex and were always going to need menu driven screen based control systems eventually.
Actually I think a form of IDrive would be great on a boat provided the IDrive controller was located somewhere convenient to hand like on the helm seat armrest or an adjacent panel. IMHO not having to reach out or even leave the helm seat to touch a screen or press a button would be a major plus. I suppose something like this has been done already on a boat but I haven't seen it on a mainstream production boat yet