Touch Operated Chartplotters - Operating When Wet

[wizard]

My wife uses these https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/?ie=UTF8...vtargid=kwd-17725453766&ref=pd_sl_6yes6koyi_b
We have a touch screen only Garmin plotter and it functions wet or dry.

Many thanks for that.

 

[[70521]]

That's fine in open water with good visibility. We sail the south coast where the water can be like the M25 and have been known to be out in the dark or fog - I want my plotter right in front of me showing the radar and AIS with all the collision avoidance functions active!

I also sail in the south coast, in the dark and fog sometimes at the same time!

I get the general feeling, this is not a comment on you maby, that lots of people are relying on modern technology and not using the Mk 1 eyeball.

 

[vyv_cox]

If an interface was designed to be totally incompatible with a boat, it would be a touch screen. It's just about manageable on a phone or tablet in your lap, but a fixed screen is virtually impossible.

I agree. If there is one thing i dislike intensely about the Zeus2 it is the touch screen. (Actually, there is far more than one thing but most of them centre about the touch screen) Mine is at the chart table where it ought to be easy to use but it isn't. In our case fingers are damp because of sweating, rather than rain or spray but this is not its only problem. With this model there is no manual alternative, the touch screen can be disabled but that's it. I curse the thing intensively when trying to do almost anything, such as the edit functions that were so easy on the old Garmin 2010. I have devised a workaround that uses the touch screen as little as possible, adding waypoints and modifying the route in the listing but it is cumbersome.

 

[mjcoon]

... It obviously depends on where satellites might be and possibly for Oz we are not so well endowed.

The orbits must be symmetrical about the equator, and Oz is not as far south as much of northern hemisphere navigation is north, so there really should not be a problem!

Mike.

 

[maby]

I also sail in the south coast, in the dark and fog sometimes at the same time!

I get the general feeling, this is not a comment on you maby, that lots of people are relying on modern technology and not using the Mk 1 eyeball.

The range of a Mk 1 eyeball in pitch black or thick fog is pretty short, you know. Prior to getting radar fitted, my wife and I were sailing up Southampton Water close to midnight at the end of Cowes week. There were a lot of fast motorboats and a variety of ferries following the same course, so we kept to the east side out of the main channel to give them space. Fortunately, my wife was sitting in the bows with a walkie-talkie keeping lookout - I heard a sudden "Hard to port!" at my end, put the helm over and we missed one of the big, unlit mooring buoys by a couple of yards. It was not marked on the plotter and, from the cockpit, we would have rammed it hard before I noticed it was there!

 

[maby]

I agree. If there is one thing i dislike intensely about the Zeus2 it is the touch screen. (Actually, there is far more than one thing but most of them centre about the touch screen) Mine is at the chart table where it ought to be easy to use but it isn't. In our case fingers are damp because of sweating, rather than rain or spray but this is not its only problem. With this model there is no manual alternative, the touch screen can be disabled but that's it. I curse the thing intensively when trying to do almost anything, such as the edit functions that were so easy on the old Garmin 2010. I have devised a workaround that uses the touch screen as little as possible, adding waypoints and modifying the route in the listing but it is cumbersome.

Quite agree - I would be reluctant to take a touch-only device as my primary plotter.

 

[Neeves]

The orbits must be symmetrical about the equator, and Oz is not as far south as much of northern hemisphere navigation is north, so there really should not be a problem!

Mike.

I was trying to give Simrad et al the benefit of the doubt. As it works well out in the 'open' the root cause is the fibreglass cabin roof - the aerial is not as sensitive in as out.

 

[dom]

I agree. If there is one thing i dislike intensely about the Zeus2 it is the touch screen. (Actually, there is far more than one thing but most of them centre about the touch screen) Mine is at the chart table where it ought to be easy to use but it isn't. In our case fingers are damp because of sweating, rather than rain or spray but this is not its only problem. With this model there is no manual alternative, the touch screen can be disabled but that's it. I curse the thing intensively when trying to do almost anything, such as the edit functions that were so easy on the old Garmin 2010. I have devised a workaround that uses the touch screen as little as possible, adding waypoints and modifying the route in the listing but it is cumbersome.

This is a true each to their own question, but I personally think touchscreen is the way to go and I suspect that it will become absolutely dominant in the near future. I currently have two touchscreen Raymarine plotters, one with a remote RMK-9 manual override. A 7" mounted on the fwd cockpit bulkhead has by far the most use, but it is just too small for normal fingers and a PITA bouncing around - if Giblets is watching this thread he will prob confirm this. The 9" down below is a better size and I will prob swap them over.

I have spoken with the software developers in a couple of the big companies and they all say that TC is the future, with the caveat that TC interfaces are currently at a point of exponential improvement. So is the screen technology itself -- and I think one can see this in the latest gear. The point here is that TC optimised software (smartphones, iPads, etc) is hard to make retro compatible with knobs and one can easily demonstrate this by attaching a keypad to an iPad -- it is hard to resist the desire to touch the screen!

Moving forward, the more TC optimised software become the more clunky knobs will feel and I suspect what you are regrettably witnessing is a generation of gear which has neither fully sorted out the screen tech, the TC interface, or silky manual override routing. Prob best just to live with it for a couple of years and then replace with something which will make all our current gear seem a bit prehistoric.

 

[maby]

I was trying to give Simrad et al the benefit of the doubt. As it works well out in the 'open' the root cause is the fibreglass cabin roof - the aerial is not as sensitive in as out.

I would be concerned if a fibreglass roof was having a noticeable impact on GPS signal. All the recent generations of GPS receiver that I've seen are so sensitive that it really should not be an issue. I've recently been updating our electronics with the latest Raymarine MFDs and tested two out in the house following delivery - both achieved a reasonable quality lock on the ground floor of our house - and our loft is very full of junk! I have a £10 Chinese GPS module hooked up to an Arduino on our boat providing anti-theft and anchor-drag alarms - it is tucked in the draw underneath the chart table and provides a rock-solid lock day after day.

 

[vyv_cox]

This is a true each to their own question, but I personally think touchscreen is the way to go and I suspect that it will become absolutely dominant in the near future. I currently have two touchscreen Raymarine plotters, one with a remote RMK-9 manual override. A 7" mounted on the fwd cockpit bulkhead has by far the most use, but it is just too small for normal fingers and a PITA bouncing around - if Giblets is watching this thread he will prob confirm this. The 9" down below is a better size and I will prob swap them over.

I have spoken with the software developers in a couple of the big companies and they all say that TC is the future, with the caveat that TC interfaces are currently at a point of exponential improvement. So is the screen technology itself -- and I think one can see this in the latest gear. The point here is that TC optimised software (smartphones, iPads, etc) is hard to make retro compatible with knobs and one can easily demonstrate this by attaching a keypad to an iPad -- it is hard to resist the desire to touch the screen!

Moving forward, the more TC optimised software become the more clunky knobs will feel and I suspect what you are regrettably witnessing is a generation of gear which has neither fully sorted out the screen tech, the TC interface, or silky manual override routing. Prob best just to live with it for a couple of years and then replace with something which will make all our current gear seem a bit prehistoric.

Unfortunately I guess that you are correct. I have no problem with my iPad but it is clear from my experience and the reviews of four touch screen plotters in a recent YM that the marine devices have a lot of catching up to do.

 

[dom]

Unfortunately I guess that you are correct. I have no problem with my iPad but it is clear from my experience and the reviews of four touch screen plotters in a recent YM that the marine devices have a lot of catching up to do.

On that very point: about 15m off the approaches to Chbg harbour during the recent Scuttlebutt trip we noticed that the Navionics screen went pink and was almost impossible to read. So assisted by Midshipman Giblets we tried and tried to fix the problem - no luck. So out came the trusty iPad with a non-Navionics package and in we went.

On the return trip we mentioned it to Angele (also of this parish) who casually commented: press this, this and this, disable something or other, select something else and all will be fine ...and it was!

This kit will I'm sure be great ...one day

 

[pvb]

I was trying to give Simrad et al the benefit of the doubt. As it works well out in the 'open' the root cause is the fibreglass cabin roof - the aerial is not as sensitive in as out.

The plotter should remember its position, thus making re-acquisition very quick. If it's taking 20 minutes to locate itself, it sounds as if the memory has failed (is there a back-up battery inside, I wonder?).

 

[bitbaltic]

I would be concerned if a fibreglass roof was having a noticeable impact on GPS signal. All the recent generations of GPS receiver that I've seen are so sensitive that it really should not be an issue.

What if e.g. a metal plate for attaching the winches were inside the coachroof immediately above Neeves' plotter, might that make a difference? Just a thought as coachroof are not always entirely fibreglass.

 

[maby]

What if e.g. a metal plate for attaching the winches were inside the coachroof immediately above Neeves' plotter, might that make a difference? Just a thought as coachroof are not always entirely fibreglass.

That is possible, though I think it would have to be a pretty large plate. Modern GPSs are remarkably sensitive. My phone can get a fix a lot of the time sitting in a railway carriage.

 

[[70521]]

The range of a Mk 1 eyeball in pitch black or thick fog is pretty short, you know. Prior to getting radar fitted, my wife and I were sailing up Southampton Water close to midnight at the end of Cowes week. There were a lot of fast motorboats and a variety of ferries following the same course, so we kept to the east side out of the main channel to give them space. Fortunately, my wife was sitting in the bows with a walkie-talkie keeping lookout - I heard a sudden "Hard to port!" at my end, put the helm over and we missed one of the big, unlit mooring buoys by a couple of yards. It was not marked on the plotter and, from the cockpit, we would have rammed it hard before I noticed it was there!

Clearly the Mk 1 worked well within the design capabilities. A brilliant example of good teamwork.

I wonder why the buoy was not on the plotter? Would you have picked it up on the radar?

I have both on-board, but still think that good seamanship and team work far outstrips the electronic wizardry.

 

[mjcoon]

Taking up Snook's point on location: We too have the Simrad NSS. It is located on a swing arm so that we can use it in the cabin or at the helm, on a cat the helm is on the rear bulkhead of the cabin and we can swing through a hatch. On booting up internally gaining a position takes time, like 20 minutes, and can lose a position quite easily. It obviously depends on where satellites might be and possibly for Oz we are not so well endowed. Basically its unreliable here. Externally these problems simply disappear - so be careful where you install or have an external GPS.

Its not an issue for us as we can have the unit externally (with 100% reliable position data) and access the data internally on an iPad with Simrad's WiFi.

Jonathan

Just a thought: there is an internal GPS antenna, isn't there? If there is supposed to be an external one there might be just enough sensitivity without if the signal is good...

Mike.

 

[maby]

Clearly the Mk 1 worked well within the design capabilities. A brilliant example of good teamwork.

....

It certainly highlights the value of a pair of cheap PMR446 walkie-talkies for safety purposes. We use ours frequently to coordinate things like dropping or raising the anchor or keeping lookout in poor visibility. One of us takes the helm and the other sits in the bows - no need to shout over engine noise and far less risk of misunderstandings.

 

[Neeves]

There is, or there are, internal GPS in the Zeus. Vulcan and NSS. it is also possible (I think in all of the units) to wire in an external GPS. We have no external GPS for the NSS but have a fall back with an old Raymarine unit (with external GPS). We did not want to interface the 2 systems (its complicated anyway, might not work very well) but we wanted 2 standalone systems until such time as the Raymarine gives up the ghost). There is reinforcing in the cabin roof its a 100mm x 5mm alloy plate for the headsail track with a big circular plate for the winch- but at its closest its quite a distance away, like 1 metre. The fibreglass is thick, its part of the loadbearing structure. I've put the slow response down to poor satellite coverage as when I check satellites at the time position setting is slow they are noticeable by their absence, or low numbers. But this might be slow identification rather than low numbers overhead as if we bring the unit outside, on its swing arm, position setting is quick. We don't mind the slow initial position setting but we would mind the drop out when in use. However as mentioned its not a big issue as we use outdoor, with the ipad coverage from inside. I simply made the comment in response to Snooks post where he suggested 'location' influenced how effective touch screens are - with the extrapolation that they were much better (as you would expect) in the dry. Consequently if anyone valued the touch screen and installed undercover I was simply suggesting caution - and as someone posted earlier, try it indoors first (before cutting a big hole to house it).

We very seldom use the touch screen, on the NSS, and rely primarily on the knob and buttons. On the smaller units (we have a 7") plotting a waypoint accurately needs the full screen (so not split) with the definition wound right up. Conversely on the ipad - its all touch screen (with dry fingers). The quickest way to a new ipad is letting it see sight of moisture.

Waterproof 'tablets' will sound the death knell for marine hardware, as we know it. WiFi works well, to tablets, radar etc - its simply the waterproofing of the tablet - and its surely not an insurmountable issue. Given how portable 'tablets' are and that everyone has one - the idea of a very expensive bit of kit, with one dedicated function - marine navigation, permenantly attached in one location looks very archaic.

Jonathan

 

[maby]

....

Waterproof 'tablets' will sound the death knell for marine hardware, as we know it. WiFi works well, to tablets, radar etc - its simply the waterproofing of the tablet - and its surely not an insurmountable issue. Given how portable 'tablets' are and that everyone has one - the idea of a very expensive bit of kit, with one dedicated function - marine navigation, permenantly attached in one location looks very archaic.

Jonathan

I suspect that the transition will be to headless plotters that rely on tablets and PCs for their user interfaces. If you only use your plotter as a map, then you probably could substitute a tablet right now, but if you have a full network of electronics on your boat, then you'll have to wait for a lot more integration before you can abandon the plotter in favour of an iPad. My plotters provide the interfaces to the autopilot, radar, AIS, DSC radio and all the instrumentation. We don't have a fishfinder, but many do. To present all that functionality on a tablet will require a data hub and you may as well put the remaining functionality of the plotter in that with it presenting its interface on tablets via wifi. That would then support multiple tablets simultaneously to replace multiple networked plotters on larger boats.

Our new Raymarines already offer this functionality as well as having their own screen and buttons. We have the plotters in the cockpit where their resilience is valuable but instead of another plotter at the chart table, we now use a tablet down below where it is not exposed to the elements. This combination works very well.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

I suspect that the transition will be to headless plotters that rely on tablets and PCs for their user interfaces. If you only use your plotter as a map, then you probably could substitute a tablet right now, but if you have a full network of electronics on your boat, then you'll have to wait for a lot more integration before you can abandon the plotter in favour of an iPad. My plotters provide the interfaces to the autopilot, radar, AIS, DSC radio and all the instrumentation. We don't have a fishfinder, but many do. To present all that functionality on a tablet will require a data hub and you may as well put the remaining functionality of the plotter in that with it presenting its interface on tablets via wifi. That would then support multiple tablets simultaneously to replace multiple networked plotters on larger boats.

Our new Raymarines already offer this functionality as well as having their own screen and buttons. We have the plotters in the cockpit where their resilience is valuable but instead of another plotter at the chart table, we now use a tablet down below where it is not exposed to the elements. This combination works very well.

Tablets, even the best, have a way to go before they're really "sunlight-viewable" though - and you've got less chance of losing a bolted plotter over the side than a slippery tablet. The big clincher for me though is that a plotter means I don't have to try and hold a tablet in one hand whilst grabbing the sheet in the other as quickly as possible and ducking under the rapidly approaching boom whilst trying to keep my balance on a boat that is suddenly starting to lean the other way (actually it was my phone and I was reading a text but the principle applies - I can't multi-task at the best of times and it was nearly a case of both me and the phone seeing if we're waterproof).