Tools needed for dropping rudder Dufour 38 (or similar)

[andyorr]

I think i have everything packed in the car! Just need some info on what size socket/spanner i need to get the top nut/lock ring off. Its been a while since i was down so can't recall what it looks like!
Cheers everyone.
Andy

 

[lpdsn]

Most useful tool when I dropped my rudder was a pickaxe for digging a hole in the boatyard.

 

[prv]

Most useful tool when I dropped my rudder was a pickaxe for digging a hole in the boatyard.

Most useful for mine was a small forklift with a skilled driver

Pete

 

[lpdsn]

Most useful for mine was a small forklift with a skilled driver

Pete

The boatyard didn't have those. They had a pickaxe though.

 

[andyorr]

Oh, and there I was hoping for helpful replies!! The boat will be on tarmac so no holes to be dug just the boat raised up. Anyway it looks like there is a collar with screws through that jam on the stock. At least that what most others have.
Anyone know different?

 

[prv]

Oh, and there I was hoping for helpful replies!!

Well, most of us don't have Dufour 38s, so we don't know what you need.

it looks like there is a collar with screws through that jam on the stock. At least that what most others have.
Anyone know different?

Our Maxi has substantial pins (one just above the seal, one at deck level) that pass right through holes drilled in the stock. The bottom one is held in place by the steering quadrant, the top one if I remember rightly has a split pin through it either side.

The biggest problem we had was getting the blade and stock perfectly lined up with the bearing in order to re-insert them. That's where the forklift was most useful.

Pete

 

[TiggerToo]

Oh, and there I was hoping for helpful replies!!

well, Tigger is a Dufour 35C: and what the first responses told you is correct. You either need to dig a hole or (in your case) need someone to lift the boat.

Sorry....

but tell us why do you need to do it in the first place?

 

[cmedsailor]

I think i have everything packed in the car! Just need some info on what size socket/spanner i need to get the top nut/lock ring off. Its been a while since i was down so can't recall what it looks like!
Cheers everyone.
Andy

I am only familiar with the rudder of a Beneteau Oceanis 361, not sure if it is similar. Are you sure there's a ring held with a nut? My rudder has a ring (collar) that is simply around the rudder shaft with a pin holding the rudder through that ring (and through a hole on the rudder shaft of course). That ring simply sits on top of the shaft tube. And then there's a second pin holding the rudder that it's able to find only if you remove conpletely the quadrant.
I am sorry if what I am describing is completely different and not helpful at all.

 

[lpdsn]

Oh, and there I was hoping for helpful replies!! The boat will be on tarmac so no holes to be dug just the boat raised up. Anyway it looks like there is a collar with screws through that jam on the stock. At least that what most others have.
Anyone know different?

As prv says, without a Dufour 38 to check, it's not possible to say exactly what you'll need. If you're looking for answers only from owners of a specific model it'll probably take a while for them to come through.

Take a range of sockets and screwdrivers. My rudder is supported by a collar and three large grub screws (if that's the correct term) at 120 degrees to each other. They don't jam on the stock. There are actually threaded holes into which they fit. If you're are anything like mine, you'll need a decent set of allen keys.

You'll also have needed to take the quadrant off before dropping the rudder - so sockets and open ended/ring spanners of the correct size (probably). I find having a long socket of the right size makes life easier for removing the eye bolts on my quadrants.

Then there's the question of what you do about the rudder. If you're in the steering compartment, you'll need someone to catch it. I proped mine up with wooden supports and some structural foam scraps from a boatbuilder to protect the rudder tip.

You don't mention why you need to drop it. If it is stiff, it might well take considerable force to get it out (we were able to slowly get mine out by hand by waggling it whilst putting our weight on it, but I've seen another Dehler where they had to build a frame and hammer the rudder out). So you might need a sledgehammer.

Hope that's a more helpful start.

 

[prv]

Then there's the question of what you do about the rudder. If you're in the steering compartment, you'll need someone to catch it. I proped mine up with wooden supports and some structural foam scraps from a boatbuilder to protect the rudder tip.

Yet another point at which the forklift was useful :encouragement:

Pete

 

[Norman_E]

When I did my Jeanneau the most useful bits of kit were a pile of wooden blocks and two wooden wedges. The blocks were placed below the rudder and the wedges driven in to support the weight whilst the cross bolt was removed. The rudder was lowered with a strong mate holding it whilst one block at a time was removed from the pile. The photo shows the rudder lowered enough to remove the upper bearing and its support frame. The other very useful tool was a ratchet spanner to get the quadrant nuts undone because on some only a quarter turn at a time was possible due to the confined space, and it would have taken an age without the ratchet.

View attachment 49391

 

[andyorr]

Reason for dropping and changing rudder bearing is stiffness, VERY! I have checked everything else and it just leaves the bearings, well bottom one at least. Possible causes are corrosion of the bearing housing putting pressure on the bearing and same on rudder shaft. The elements are all alloy I think but shaft maybe stainless if I am lucky. Corrosion can be galvanic as the shaft isn't protected by an anode.
I reckon I will need a big hammer, a hardwood "rod" to hammer the shaft downwards once freed. There will be 3 of us, one a marine engineer, so with luck it'll "happen". Got new bearings from Dufour. Expensive! So trying to save £350+ labour charges.
Good tip on allen keys, thanks everyone!

 

[knuterikt]

When we dropped the rudder on our Benetau First 38, the hardest task was to get the SS bolts klamping the aluminium quadrant to the rudder post.
Some line tied to the tip of the rudder up to the cockpit winches was useful.
First to raise the rudder some mm to take the load of the bolt securing the top collar.
Later it was used to control the decent and lift back in place.

Quadrant with bolts - later picture after we applied Duralac, made second dismantling a breeze some years later.

Top ring with bolt

The ring was binding to the shaft, a few light taps with a hammer got it moving.
Going down - ring and trust bearing removed.

 

[lpdsn]

Reason for dropping and changing rudder bearing is stiffness, VERY!

I'm glad it not just Dehlers.

Are you sure there are Aluminium bearings directly on the rudder stock? Sounds like a recipe for disaster if the stock is s/s.

Mine is Nylon - Dehler, at least their first incarnation and almost certainly their second, seeing as I've seen worse problems with that generation than with mine, used the wrong sort of nylon. In my case, it was just a case of scraping a fraction of a mm off the inside of the lower bearing, which I realise is only a short-term solution, but it has been good for the last five years.

PO had made it much worse by greasing the bearing, so when it dried out the grease and salt mix was pretty horrendous. Cleaning that gunk out was a major improvement.

 

[Norman_E]

If the bearings are nylon (mine are) a little bit of play when dry is a good thing as nylon swells when wet. My rudder shaft is 2.5 inch diameter stainless and the bottom bearing has nearly 1mm total play when dry. I wondered if that was too much but my surveyor friend said it was fine.

P.S. On the Jeanneau the nylon bearings are tightly pressed into rubber bushes with the lower one directly fitted into the GRP tube moulded into the hull and the upper one into a steel fabrication.

 

[PeterR]

I had to lift out early last year because the steering was getting extremely stiff on my 2008 Dufour 34 after 7000 miles. I assume the steering system is much the same on your Dufour 38, apart from the twin wheels.

The bearings are French JP3 self - aligning bearings mounted in aluminium cups. The bearing material is supposed to be resistant to water absorption but this does not appear to be the case as numerous owners have reported similar problems. Some dealers have suggested that they are manufactured to too tight a tolerance on the shaft. The same bearings are used by many of the mass market builders. The stiffness is probably due to swelling of the bearing due to water absorption but could in part also be due to calcification building up between the bearing and the aluminium housing, corrosion of the aluminium housing, corrosion and pitting on the shaft or possibly a combination of all four factors.

I attach links to one owner cleaning the bearings on a Dufour 32

https://www.flickr.com/photos/41315554@N07/sets/72157622026477419/

and a video of a yard replacing the same sort of bearing in a Bavaria 37.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9upUBC2tu1c

In my case. after digging a fairly deep hole to drop the rudder into, the first task was to remove the quadrant. The two halves were held clamped together by 4 large S/S Allen socket headed studs. As these thread directly into one half of the aluminium quadrant there is a good chance they will have seized unless you have been periodically removing and greasing them. Fortunately, I had been doing that and they came out easily. There was also a large S/S stud running through the quadrant and through the S/S stock. I had always feared the rudder would drop out if I removed that for routine servicing. That was a big mistake! The stud was terminally seized within the quadrant. In the end the head sheared off and I had to separate the quadrant by using a cold chisel and a lump hammer and then hammer out what was left of the stud.

The stock was then still held in place by the top thrust bearing which had another S/S stud running through both it and the shaft. That was S/S running through S/S so had not seized. With the steering removed the rudder was so stiff that I was unable to turn it just by gripping it. The top of the shaft had a recess in it in which I placed an eighteen inch by one inch steel bar (part of a set of weights). Smashing that with a lump hammer I slowly managed to lower the rudder by a couple of inches. Once the shaft was clear of the upper bearing (and more importantly the lower bearing was on clean shaft) the rudder was just rotatable by hand so I squirted washing up liquid down the shaft and just kept rotating the rudder which in effect screwed itself out of the lower bearing. This was extremely hard work - each 360 degree rotation gained about 1 to 2 mm. Despite the effort this was more effective than hammering the shaft. I tried a sledge hammer but you don’t have enough control and a lump hammer is better but still not very effective.

With the rudder out I cleaned up the shaft where it had corroded and pitted slightly at the lower bearing surface. The upper bearing was fine and after a bit of cleaning up I was able to rotate it through 90 degrees and remove it from the aluminium housing. In contrast the lower bearing was seized solid within its housing. I took a bit of scaffolding pole to try and prize it free but to no effect. To release it I would have had to try and dissolve all the calcifications with acid and I was worried that using a strong enough acid would damage the aluminium.

I am not convinced the self - aligning bearings do anything after a few weeks in the water, they must inevitably seize up when in contact with sea water. Their only value is to simplify the build process as the manufacturer does not need to use a template to line up the bearings whilst glassing the housings in place. As my lower bearing was already correctly aligned I decided to just ream it out a little. The piece of scaffolding wrapped with one sheet of wet and dry paper was almost a perfect fit. Just a little hand reaming soon cleaned up the inside of the bearing and allowed the shaft to be refitted and turn freely. Be wary, the shaft is very heavy and when trying to replace it whilst standing astride a hole in the ground it is very difficult to get it started back into the bearing. A wooden palate comes in very useful for taking the strain when the rudder is half way home. My rudder is now turning very freely and I am a bit worried I may have taken off too much from the bearing surface but at least that allows for a little further expansion. If it doesn’t work at least it will be easy enough to get the shaft out to fit a new bearing. However, what worries me about doing that is that it appears to be just about impossible to remove the old bearing without damaging the aluminium housing and if you do that you are in for a major rebuild. As it was the whole process took two full days of very hard work.

In your case if you have already bought the bearings you might want to try fitting the bottom one but there is then a sporting chance the same problem will occur again quite quickly. I would have a go at just reaming the old one in the first place. The upper one - which never gets wet - should be absolutely fine and I would refit the old one and keep the second new one as a spare.

I would now strongly recommend anyone with these sort of bearings to drop the rudder by at least by 6 inches every winter to make sure all the bolts holding the quadrant are free and greased and to clean up the shaft from corrosion and general crud which inevitably accumulates.

 

[Labytnager]

I am only familiar with the rudder of a Beneteau Oceanis 361, not sure if it is similar. Are you sure there's a ring held with a nut? My rudder has a ring (collar) that is simply around the rudder shaft with a pin holding the rudder through that ring (and through a hole on the rudder shaft of course). That ring simply sits on top of the shaft tube. And then there's a second pin holding the rudder that it's able to find only if you remove conpletely the quadrant.
I am sorry if what I am describing is completely different and not helpful at all.

Hi Cmedsailor

I'm currently helping a friend with his Oceanis 361 and we are planning to drop the rudder soon. I looked at the collar which you are talking about and it doesn't look right. Can you check the picture please? Is the collar on your boat angled the same way?

 

[sailaboutvic]

I had been doing that and they came out easily. There was also a large S/S stud running through the quadrant and through the S/S stock. I had always feared the rudder would drop out if I removed that for routine servicing. That was a big mistake! The stud was terminally seized within the quadrant. In the end the head sheared off and I had to separate the quadrant by using a cold chisel and a lump hammer and then hammer out what was left of the stud.

.

This may be your biggest problem in removing the rudder , has we all know S/S and Ali don't go very well together , I ended up cutting each of the four bolt that held the quadrant to gather and then having to heat up the quadrant to remove the bolts ,
as said above , it best to remove the bolts every other year to keep them free .
If it wasn't for this problem I would had had the rudder of in no time at all ,
instead it took me a day just to cut the bolts and another to have them remove them .
Good luck .

 

[PaulR]

had boatyard remove the rudder of our Dehler 34 - secured at head of rudder shaft by a stainless collar held by a grub allen bolt - however having removed the grub bolt the stainless ring (which was all that was holding the rudder up once we had unbolted the steering quadrant clamp) did not want to let go - yard suggested I went for a walk and they released it by applying SIGNIFICANT blows on top of projecting shaft to make collar let go-more than I would have felt comfortable applying!

 

[rudolph_hart]

had boatyard remove the rudder of our Dehler 34 - secured at head of rudder shaft by a stainless collar held by a grub allen bolt - however having removed the grub bolt the stainless ring (which was all that was holding the rudder up once we had unbolted the steering quadrant clamp) did not want to let go - yard suggested I went for a walk and they released it by applying SIGNIFICANT blows on top of projecting shaft to make collar let go-more than I would have felt comfortable applying!

+1 on both my Dehler 34s.

In my case, I did the 'significant' bit myself, using a length of 4x4" as a piledriver !