Too much weather helm

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ash2020

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I know this question is probably standard textbook stuff but I'm interested in experiences that people have had.
I have a Jagpuar 23 with fractional rig, large roller reef Genoa and a slightly baggy main. She will almost sail without touching the tiller in light airs but in a blow the weather helm increases to an uncomfortable level.
What would be the things to look for? (I do generally reef sooner rather than later).
Thanks for any advice.
Andrew
 
ash2020 said:
I know this question is probably standard textbook stuff but I'm interested in experiences that people have had.
I have a Jagpuar 23 with fractional rig, large roller reef Genoa and a slightly baggy main. She will almost sail without touching the tiller in light airs but in a blow the weather helm increases to an uncomfortable level.
What would be the things to look for? (I do generally reef sooner rather than later).
Thanks for any advice.
Andrew
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The Jag23 was never intended to be a heavy weather boat, more a lightweight cruiser/racer so weather helm building up as the wind increases should be the expected result. When I had a boat that size it was for ever being blown around and griping in gusts unless it was already well reefed. Sailing with the tiller under my chin was commonplace!

Since it's fractional then have you tried tightening the backstay to push the middle of the mast forward, flattening the main and therefore reducing it's drive and subsequent weather helm?

My current 9.5 tonnes of 44footer responds well to the backstay being tightened and we can stay at full sail for at least another 1.5 beauforts, the boat being seen to visibly "stand up" and the helm come nearer to midships as the handle is turned.

I don't think that you really have a problem. It's just the nature of the design.

Chas
 
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Weather helm

Yes as said the weather helm or rounding up or griping is a result of heeling of the boat. Reduce sail area so reduce heel so reduce weather helm so improve speed.
The concept of balance will dictate you reduce main sail area or pressure. However I would suggest you reduce jib area and will find the same improvements in weather helm.

As said the baggy main should be fixed by more halyard more outhaul and more backstay tension. Then pull in the cunningham if you have one and a flattening reef. These are reef points just a small way from the foot which reduce area slightly but remove bagginess.

if you find you sail in stronger winds a lot you might consider a smaller roller jib or even go back to hanked on jibs. good luck olewill
 
When the wind picks up and weather helm and heel increases, there are ways to depower your rig before you start thinking about reefing.
It's easy to start talking about backstay tension and outhaul and twist and draft position; but it's hard to grasp and put it all together just by reading about it.
Talk to sailors you know (or join a club), get some sort of consensus about who knows what they are doing and buy them beer in the hopes that they will show you how advanced sail trim works. When you see it and understand it - it's like sex; but it lasts longer!!!
sam :-)
 
Thanks for those tips. I think part of the problem is that I think the main is just stretched. I can heave on the outhaul and wind the halyard with the winch, and pull the Cunningham, but still can't flatten the sail. I'll try more with the backstay too.
I'd rather not sail so much in heavy conditions, it just seems to happen that way!
Thanks again.
 
You mention a "baggy mainsail" - as above this will not help as you need the sail as flat as possible in strong winds for maximum efficiency - a baggy main will provide some weather helm symptons in those conditions - most cruising yachts do not have a flattener - like a reefing line in the luff between the outhall and the 1st reef point - this helps flatten the sail enormously and saves reefing if conditions are a little imbetween full main and 1st reef.

Also does the boat have a traveller -if so keep the main as tight in as possible on the mainsheet to flatten it when going upwind and dump the traveller to reduce helm.

As above you need really to "play" with various settings to see which is best for you
 
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ash2020 said:
I know this question is probably standard textbook stuff but I'm interested in experiences that people have had.
I have a Jagpuar 23 with fractional rig, large roller reef Genoa and a slightly baggy main. She will almost sail without touching the tiller in light airs but in a blow the weather helm increases to an uncomfortable level.
What would be the things to look for? (I do generally reef sooner rather than later).
Thanks for any advice.
Andrew
Click to expand...

Different boat but exact same set up, and the same experience - tried a few things but like you reefing early seems to be the answer - based on some of the answers here though, I have a few more things to try.... especially rolling in some jib..... stupid question, and apologies, but I'm assuming you let out the topping lift a much as she'll go to also help flatten off the main??
 
SamSalter said:
Topping lift is always slack. It's just to hold the boom up when the sail is down; not a sail trim device.
sam :-)
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Technically correct, but, If the topping lift is left on it will be impossible to flatten the main with tension from the main sheet.
 
CharlesSwallow said:
The Jag23 was never intended to be a heavy weather boat, more a lightweight cruiser/racer so weather helm building up as the wind increases should be the expected result. When I had a boat that size it was for ever being blown around and griping in gusts unless it was already well reefed. Sailing with the tiller under my chin was commonplace!


Chas
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Absolutely right. But you can help yourself by reefing down early and by a lot. You dont lose street cred by not having full sail up in an F4. You just lose bad handling.
 
SamSalter said:
Topping lift is always slack. It's just to hold the boom up when the sail is down; not a sail trim device.
sam :-)
Click to expand...

Really? I use my topping lift in light winds to trim the sails - 3 or 4" of topping lift puts a nice bag into the sail and helps speed - may be apocraphyl of course... :o

Having said that for my boat wotayottie's post has spelt out my experience to date perfectly... wise words..
 
William_H said:
The concept of balance will dictate you reduce main sail area or pressure. However I would suggest you reduce jib area and will find the same improvements in weather helm.
Click to expand...

My boat has a small main and a large roller reefing genoa and I find reefing the genoa first works better than reefing the main.
 
Weather helm due to the CofE moving back.

Whilst Cunninghams at luff and leech might help (flattening reef is the one at the luff), probably the best thing to do would be to have a sailmaker recut the main to take some broad seam out of it.

Unless a fractional rig, the use of the backstay to flatten the main is more imaginary than real and on a fractional rig, bendy mast, watch the lee shrouds go slack and realise that it's an unstable geometric condition.
 
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