Toilet/ heads arrangement in 1960's Robert Tucker Mystic 21.

[HandmadeMatt]

So, there is a funny arrangment and I'm wondering a few things:
Here are some pictures:

The hatch to the seat opens up to an empty area. At first I thought maybe they used to just scoop some sea water into a bucket, do what they had to do and then sling it over board. However, I've also noticed that there is a cock just beyond the toilet cabinate, also pictured. Is this where a sea toilet was once fitted? Can I put one in? (The space is limited for the modern ones that are available I think.) Alternatively, what is the cock in the picture for do you think?

Advice appreciated.

 

[prv]

A fitted bucket was not uncommon at one time, and I think there's a lot to be said for its simplicity in a small boat like yours.

I can't see any purpose to the seacock in that position except for a toilet, so I think she probably did have one at one time. The woodwork doesn't look right for a toilet though, plus the valve has clearly been sealed up, so my guess would be that somebody removed the toilet and converted to bucket-and-chuckit.

If you decide to reinstall a flush toilet, you should definitely replace that gate valve rather than reuse it. Easily enough done, installing a new through-hull and ball valve through the same hole. Ask here for further advice if you go that route.

If you decide not to install a toilet, the best approach would be to remove the valves and repair the holes in the hull. If you decide not to bother, you should at least grab the valve and give it a vigorous wrench from side to side with your full strength, to test that it is not corroded inside and about to snap off and sink the boat.

For a toilet there should be two valves (one for flush-water inlet, one for waste outlet) - have you found the other?

Pete

 

[sarabande]

The box could be for an Elsan (an early bucket with chemicals in it job).

If a sea toilet ("heads") were fitted, there would also be another through hull fitting for the pumped solids.



If you are not going to install a proper heads, then the valve needs to be taken out, and the aperture blocked carefully.

 

[DanTribe]

That throne arrangement looks very like a Bucket'nChuckit system.
We had one using an enamel bucket. [because we're posh]
It worked flawlessly, but you had to be careful not to let the boat heel too much!
That doesn't explain the seacock though.
Is there another one somewhere, because see loos need an inlet & outlet?

 

[HandmadeMatt]

Ah, the mystery deepens before all becomes clear,
There is another seacock just infront and down to the right of the throne cabinate. Here it is:

The underside of it looks like this, so it's clearly an intake:

The underside of the other one looks like this, so it's clearly and outward flow:

They are both VERY solid and seem to be blocked well, however I guess it's best to have as few superfluous holes in the bottom of a boat as possible!
Ideally it'd be great to put back a sea heads unit but if not I guess the best option would be to get rid of them and seal them up properly.

If anyone has any leads for a heads unit that would fit the bill please do let me know.

Thanks again, so much. This forum has been amazing already and it's only my first proper day here!

 

[prv]

There is another seacock just infront and down to the right of the throne cabinate. Here it is:

That is a Blakes seacock, or one very like it. Much better than the plumber's gate valve on the outlet - I'd be happy leaving that one as-is (though you could certainly remove it if desired).

If anyone has any leads for a heads unit that would fit the bill please do let me know.

Given the age, your boat may well have had a Baby Blake toilet if it had one when built. However, these are now absurdly, ridiculously expensive new (as in, you could buy a reasonable second-hand boat for the same money) and I assume are only bought by millionaires wanting to restore classic schooners to their as-built condition.

The practical choice would be a Jabsco for about £100, if it fits. You'd need to give some actual dimensions of the available space to determine that.

Whether a toilet is needed depends on the kind of sailing you do and who with - if you have ladies on board then you really need some kind of sit-down loo even if just a fitted bucket. If all blokes then you can just pee over the side, and if it's just you then you can **** in an ordinary bucket in the cockpit - can be quite pleasant watching the sun go down, with a drink

Pete

 

[HandmadeMatt]

Wow, thanks for the great info. Bucket and chuck it system would be fine in general (except when other boats are close or when the mother in law is out with us!) I do vision doing multi day trips up the coast and although my girlfriend and I are used to "camping style" living I would enjoy to host guests in comfort for day trips, especially the ladies as you say. The added bonus would be that we could make use of the facilities.

For £100 (plus sundries) I'd fit a proper unit for sure. The boat was a bargain (seriously!) and I've got money left in the budget.

Here's a photo of the space:

I measured it and have tried to portray it in these drawings as best as possible: (When it says front it means the "front" facing you when you look at it from inside the cabin.)

Do you think I've got enough space to play with?

 

[prv]

Do you think I've got enough space to play with?

It's gonna be tight!

I think you will struggle with the height of a Jabsco toilet - you might not be able to close the wooden lid flat over it. Maybe it would just squeeze in if you took the seat and lid off the toilet and used the existing woodwork as the seat. Alternatively, you could rebuild the woodwork with a slightly raised "box" between the two cushions, forming a kind of "bed side table". The walls of this box would help keep the cushions from drifting into the toilet area, which is a good thing - you'd make the walls fixed, the lid hinge up, and the front hinge down.

You definitely don't have room for the pump to go in its normal position to one side of the bowl, but I think you should be able to unbolt the bowl and rotate it 90 degrees so that the pump is at the back of the toilet. The footprint of the unit is then a relatively narrow fore-and-aft line which has the best chance of fitting into your triangular space.

Whatever you do it's going to be a squeeze, and don't underestimate the space that the big stiff pipes will take up (ASAP's grey SeaFlow hose is much more flexible and will go through tighter curves, if the budget runs to it).

Pete

 

[CreakyDecks]

I recently acquired a Vivacity 20 as a "project". It amused me no end when I discovered that it has a sea toilet in the V birth. The headroom there is probably less than two feet so the only way it can possibly be used is by opening the fore hatch and sitting with head and shoulders outside the boat!

 

[clyst]

I think you will find that your mystic was fitted a Simpson and Lawrence heads . It was lower and a lot cheaper than a baby Blake . Although not available new now they can be picked up cheaply at boat jumbles .
I had one of the first Mystics many years ago .

 

[prv]

I think you will find that your mystic was fitted a Simpson and Lawrence heads

Ah - an SL400, presumably? Might help the OP google for it.

Pete

 

[clyst]

That's the one !! A funny shallow bowl compared to modern ones but many 60s small boats had them fitted.

 

[VicS]

Do you think I've got enough space to play with?

I am near 100% certain that you will not find any current model of sea toilet that will fit within the height available........ I've been looking!

If you want a marine toilet the only hope will, I think, be a second hand SL400. They come up from time to time on ebay. Spares are currently still available but I guess when they've all gone they will be all gone and you could fnd yourself left with something unserviceable.

 

[HandmadeMatt]

Ah brilliant. Thanks everyone. There's one on eBay at the moment in an auction with no reserve.

 

[ronsurf]

I would forget about putting a loo in there and just use a bucket. Use the space for storing vital items such as lifejackets, wetsuits, wine and rum. Or a spare anchor. All much more use than a loo. Most people only wee in the loo anyway, and a bucket is fine. I use a big one for guests, and a small one if it's rough.

Primarily, it's the thought of sleeping over a toilet that puts me off. If your boat hasn't got a seperate heads compartment, use a bucket.

 

[VicS]

Ah brilliant. Thanks everyone. There's one on eBay at the moment in an auction with no reserve.

There was one ( c/w new seat) a few weeks ago that attracted no bids!

If it had been nearer to me I might have bid for it but just too far away to want to go to collect.

 

[HandmadeMatt]

What would a fair price for a SL400 toilet in reasonable condition do people think?

 

[DanTribe]

Consider getting a Porta Potti from a camping shop. If it will fit, it's the simplest and quickest solution.
We carry one for use where holding tanks are required.

 

[prv]

Consider getting a Porta Potti from a camping shop. If it will fit, it's the simplest and quickest solution.

It won't fit, due to the triangular shape of the hull and the square shape of the porta-potti. Plus you then end up carrying a plastic bottle full of sewage around, which has never struck me as a very good idea in a small and lively boat. You can't (shouldn't) empty it overboard if you use the porta-potti chemicals, and if you don't use the chemicals then it's basically just an expensive and overcomplicated bucket.

Bucket-and-chuckit (or go directly over the side) at sea, use the shoreside facilities if packed into a marina.

Pete

 

[Searush]

What would a fair price for a SL400 toilet in reasonable condition do people think?

It's worth what you will pay for it, but given that a cheap new sea loo is 100 squid, I would probably not go above 50 for a used one. Having said that, a replacement seat for my Lavac is 50 squid.

There is an e-bay capability for finding items like the one you are looking at that sold recently, that will tell you what they fetch on e-bay.