To buy a yacht treated for osmosis ?

[Grahamm462]

I am interested in a yacht that has had full professional biaxial osmosis treatment this year with guarantee. Should I assume that the treatment has been fully effective (subject to survey approval) and make no allowance in the purchase price, or require a discount on the price ?

 

[pvb]

Depends on the price. If you think it's overpriced, you could use the osmosis as a bargaining ploy. But remember that osmosis is mainly a cosmetic problem - boats don't sink as a result of it. The boat could well be better protected now than when it was new.

 

[Tranona]

I am interested in a yacht that has had full professional biaxial osmosis treatment this year with guarantee. Should I assume that the treatment has been fully effective (subject to survey approval) and make no allowance in the purchase price, or require a discount on the price ?

If it is part of the description of the boat, how can you possibly expect a "discount" on what the vendor is aking - he will have taken into consideration the treatment when he set his asking price.

Does not satop you making an offer at a lower price if you consider he is asking too much compared with what else you can buy for the money. But you can't use the treatment as a bargaining point if he has already declared it.

 

[Boo2]

I am interested in a yacht that has had full professional biaxial osmosis treatment this year with guarantee. Should I assume that the treatment has been fully effective (subject to survey approval) and make no allowance in the purchase price, or require a discount on the price ?

Imho a discount is the order of the day. The buyer will have added all/most/part of the cost of the treatment directly on to his appraisal of the value, that will seem fair to him. However that is not what the person you eventually sell the boat will do : they are far more likely to consider that the dreaded O may come back and will require a discount to offset their perceived risk. So to avoid making a big loss when you come to sell the boat you must do the same.

Just my opinion,

Boo2

 

[Tranona]

Imho a discount is the order of the day. The buyer will have added all/most/part of the cost of the treatment directly on to his appraisal of the value, that will seem fair to him. However that is not what the person you eventually sell the boat will do : they are far more likely to consider that the dreaded O may come back and will require a discount to offset their perceived risk. So to avoid making a big loss when you come to sell the boat you must do the same.

Just my opinion,

Boo2

How do you know what the vendor has "added" or not? He has set an asking price and described the boat that is on offer. It is up to you to decide if the price is acceptable to you. If you think it is too high then offer a lower price, but saying it is because it has had osmosis treatment is a waste of breath - he knows that. Bargaining on the basis of faults comes in when you find things that are not in the description.

If you don't want to buy a boat that has had osmosis treatment, don't waste any time on it.

 

[Fire99]

I think Osmosis is pretty harsh for a seller as it's only them it really affects.

As a buyer, yeah it's another tool in your arsenal to get a better price. Look at cars. Regardless on whether the seller has advertised a fault, the buyer will use that fault as a means to negotiate the price. Some sellers won't be interested but many will.

Personally i'd look at buying a boat that's been Osmosis treated in a different way. If the seller has taken the trouble and expense to have it professionally treated then i'd wager that they may have treated the rest of the boat with the same 'no expense spared' way so you may find the boat has been better cared for than one that hasn't had the treatment.

Not a rule of thumb but perhaps another angle..

Either way, I wouldn't be put off by the Osmosis treatment.

 

[Frenchgeordie]

Hi
I am thinking about buying a boat that had a clean survey ? 7 years ago, the hull has not been out of the water fro 3 years until this week and there are some small blisters, the extent of which i need to determine yet. I am not put off by this but would like to know if there is a good DIY method for treating this?

 

[Alfie168]

A guarantee is only as good as the company giving it. If they go out of business, so does the guarantee, but if you like the boat and can confirm to your own satisfaction that the remedial work has been properly carried out, then decide if you want it and make an offer at whatever level you think is suitable. I'd want to speak to the people who did the work personally if I were a serious prospective buyer. You can learn a lot just by having a chat with them.

There is always give and take in any trading situation, but its up to you to decide whether you like the goods and make an offer, or not. You know the score, the ball is in your court.

Tim

 

[Boo2]

How do you know what the vendor has "added" or not?

Because it is human nature, and I am human ?

He has set an asking price and described the boat that is on offer. It is up to you to decide if the price is acceptable to you.

And how does that conflict with the fact that the vendor had different, conflicting, reasons and concerns when setting his price ?

If you think it is too high then offer a lower price, but saying it is because it has had osmosis treatment is a waste of breath - he knows that.

He doesn't know what is signifficant to the buyer unless the buyer tells him

Bargaining on the basis of faults comes in when you find things that are not in the description.

Sez who ?

If you don't want to buy a boat that has had osmosis treatment, don't waste any time on it.

But, by hypothesis, the OP does want to buy (or at least is considering buying) such a boat. And so anything that will persuade the vendor that the set price is too high is in the interests of the buyer. And explaining that the person you will eventually sell the boat to will value it less because of its history of osmosis will be a reasonable strategy.

It is perfectly normal to give your reasons for offering a lower price for something than that asked, so I really don't know what your issue is here ?

Boo2

 

[Tranona]

The issue is the warped logic that there is somehow a fixed price from which you require a discount because you perceive that he has "added on" something you don't think you should pay for - and then because you think that you might lose out down the line when you sell.

None of this is of any concern to the vendor. You make your offer based on what the boat is worth to you - you don't have to try and persuade him he has "added something on" that he should not. After all this is a negotiation between two equal parties and he is just as entitled to tell you to clear off as you are to walk away.

When you become a seller instead of a (non) buyer you might begin to understand!

 

[Frenchgeordie]

Graham,
"Should I assume that the treatment has been fully effective (subject to survey approval) and make no allowance in the purchase price"
ASSUME nothing, make an offer based on what you think the boat is worth and what you can afford, if there is no obvious osmosis issues visible the survey should show up any problems. make your offer subject to survey also!

 

[smth448]

You could look upon the osmosis treatment as an improvement. How does the asking price compare to a similar boat but without the osmosis treatment? An untreated boat that is susceptible to the dreaded O may well develop osmosis the day after you take ownership and then you have all the expense of treatment. The boat you are looking at has been treated, and if properly done, by a reputable company should last forever. So I would expect to pay more for a treated boat than an untreated one that may develop osmosis.

When it boils down to it it is a buyers market so make an offer and be prepared to walk away if it is turned down flat. If the seller wants to sell he will negotiate. Any boat is only worth what you are prepared to pay for it.

 

[Boo2]

The issue is the warped logic that there is somehow a fixed price from which you require a discount because you perceive that he has "added on" something you don't think you should pay for - and then because you think that you might lose out down the line when you sell.

The logic seems to me to be sound :

1. There is a (hopefully not fixed) price - the asking price.
2. The buyer is hoping for a reduction in that price.
3. The vendor probably sees the £6k++ s/he's spent on osmosis treatment as adding to the value of the boat.
4. This, and subsequent buyers, are likely to see that expenditure as at best bringing the boat up to normal standards and at worst being a sign of increased risk cf similar boats that haven't had money spent on osmosis treatment.
5. This difference in perception needs to be resolved for a successful sale/purchase to occur.
6. This kind of thing is why we're born with gobs.

None of this is of any concern to the vendor.

Well it would surely concern me if every potential buyer of an item I was trying to sell walked away without saying what was up.

You make your offer based on what the boat is worth to you - you don't have to try and persuade him he has "added something on" that he should not.

I am not saying that anyone *has* to do anything. I was making the point that the seller will see their expenditure in a different light than the buyer, and that will most likely need to be resolved before a price can be agreed.

After all this is a negotiation between two equal parties and he is just as entitled to tell you to clear off as you are to walk away.

Fair point. But telling someone to clear off does not sell your boat, and equally, walking away does not buy it. Hence diccussion, and hopefully resolution, of differences in perception of value of the boat. As I said, that's why we're born with gobs.

When you become a seller instead of a (non) buyer you might begin to understand!

When that happens I will hopefully still be able to see the buyers' POV, and (also hopefully) be able to tailor advice given here to the circumstances of the person asking the question, rather than seeking to persuade the buyer to refrain from negotiating tactics which I'd rather not hear as a seller.

But YMMV,

Boo2

 

[gunman]

One thing that winds me up when I'm selling something is when I declare faults etc and adjust price accordingly only to find a buyer wants yet more money off to bring it up to mint condition (for the price I have set taking into consideration the faults), If it were perfect I would be asking more. On the flip side I recently biught a car and the seller listed all his expenses since owning (including his MOT Fee). Maintainence done during ownership is the owners problem at that time, not a potential buyers.

It all depends on how the seller has set his price in each case, certainly looking 'ceiling' price for a boat\car etc with faults isn't going to work, but if a seller has priced an item taking into consideration the condition\work required, starting haggling because it '"isn't perfect" will get their back up!

So the question is, Is the price higher or lower because of the work? I personally cant see there being a bargaining chip for something you know about before you even view the boat.

 

[Boo2]

So the question is, Is the price higher or lower because of the work? I personally cant see there being a bargaining chip for something you know about before you even view the boat.

If the buyer can persuade the seller that other buyers will see the work as reducing the value of the boat when the seller had previously seen it as increasing the value of the boat then it's a bargaining chip IMHO.

But I agree with your remarks about raising people's hackles - it's got to be done tactfully so as to avoid that.

Boo2

 

[Tranona]

The logic seems to me to be sound :

1. There is a (hopefully not fixed) price - the asking price.
2. The buyer is hoping for a reduction in that price.
3. The vendor probably sees the £6k++ s/he's spent on osmosis treatment as adding to the value of the boat.
4. This, and subsequent buyers, are likely to see that expenditure as at best bringing the boat up to normal standards and at worst being a sign of increased risk cf similar boats that haven't had money spent on osmosis treatment.
5. This difference in perception needs to be resolved for a successful sale/purchase to occur.
6. This kind of thing is why we're born with gobs.



Boo2

Maybe this is why you are having so much difficulty in buying a boat!

Why is there always an assumption that you must get the price reduced? Why are you treating the seller as an idiot by trying to tell him why he is asking too much? He has worked out how much he would like to receive to give up ownership of his property, taking into account the condition of the boat he is offering.

You make your offer which he can refuse of accept - you don't need to tell him why you are offering less. Lets be honest when we are talking about old boats there is always something you can pick on to argue about, which is why it is best for the vendor to describe the boat as honestly as he can, and for the buyer not to waste his time if the asking price is different from what he is prepared to pay.

 

[Quandary]

Lots of boats are put on the market with osmosis, often its discovery is the cause of the boat going on the market, sometimes the blisters are dug out, some filler put in and after a seasons dry out a couple of coats of epoxy is put on plus three coats of antifouling. Not every surveyor spots it as they seem to depend on their moisture meters. I have watched this happen, more than once.
So this seller has had it properly treated, probably with a transferable warranty, and has been up front about it, so the boat is a better buy than any contemporary that has no such history.

There seems to be an awful lot of imaginary strategies among the boat buying public as evidenced above, it is not that complex, a seller who has owned a boat for a while will know what he is prepared to accept for it and the serious buyer will know how much he wants it, the long term tyre kickers are just a irritating nuisance but it does not take that long to spot them, even on a forum, and most brokers will know them already. Some sellers may set over inflated asking prices but the only way to sell the boat is to get people to come to look at it, so the sale depends on sensible pricing relative to condition.

 

[Boo2]

Maybe this is why you are having so much difficulty in buying a boat!

Nope. I am having trouble finding one I like and can afford.

Why is there always an assumption that you must get the price reduced?

There is no such assumption. This entire thread is about a circumstance where the seller may have a different view of the value of a boat from the potential buyer.

Why are you treating the seller as an idiot by trying to tell him why he is asking too much?

Telling some you disagree with them is not the same thing as treating them as an idiot. This is obviously a lesson you would benefit from learning.

He has worked out how much he would like to receive to give up ownership of his property, taking into account the condition of the boat he is offering.

Which is not the same thing as saying that is the lowest price s/he can be persuaded to accept.

You make your offer which he can refuse of accept - you don't need to tell him why you are offering less.

It's true that you don't need to persuade the seller that your offer is reasonable. But it is also true that if you do manage to persuade him of that then your chances of buying the boat, and his chances of selling the boat are both improved.

Lets be honest when we are talking about old boats there is always something you can pick on to argue about, which is why it is best for the vendor to describe the boat as honestly as he can, and for the buyer not to waste his time if the asking price is different from what he is prepared to pay.

No, you are wrong to say it is a waste of the sellers time for the buyer to discuss with him their reasons for offering a lower price. The buyer may have a better idea of the value of the boat than the seller and so that information could lead to the seller saving much time in selling the boat. In that case it is "best" for the buyer to argue their case.

And, really, there is no reason they shouldn't do that anyway is there ? The seller can always just say no and that that they believe they can get more money. So what harm is done ?


Boo2

 

[Ubergeekian]

I am interested in a yacht that has had full professional biaxial osmosis treatment this year with guarantee. Should I assume that the treatment has been fully effective (subject to survey approval) and make no allowance in the purchase price, or require a discount on the price ?

How much to you want a boat which has had the structure of the hull fundamentally disrupted, and the original chemical bond between the outer and inner layers replaced with a weak glued join, in order to solve a problem which has never yet sunk a yacht?

Me, I'd avoid peeled and painted hulls like the plague. Far better to grind out - or put up with - the odd blister than have a structure monkeyed around with to that extent. This particularly goes for modern lightweight hulls.

 

[Quandary]

There you are Tranona, another lesson for you.
I bet you did not know that buyers knew the real value of something better than the seller who had owned it, until you got involved in this lesson.
You should thank him for educating you in the ways of the boating world.