Timer in Power line.

[driver0606]

I will be tightening the strap as advised, but will always feel more comfortable with a time switch. I will check out the timer recommended, thanks. The main problem with these kind of switches seems to be they need a trigger supply and separate power supply for the pump, I only have the power supply for the pump so I will check this . Sealand say there should be "night switch" at the wc. My two do not and it would be a nightmare getting wires to the engine room. A time switch would be a simple and better fix as the pumps are far enough away to not be intrusive.

 

[Hurricane]

I will be tightening the strap as advised, but will always feel more comfortable with a time switch. I will check out the timer recommended, thanks. The main problem with these kind of switches seems to be they need a trigger supply and separate power supply for the pump, I only have the power supply for the pump so I will check this . Sealand say there should be "night switch" at the wc. My two do not and it would be a nightmare getting wires to the engine room. A time switch would be a simple and better fix as the pumps are far enough away to not be intrusive.

I hadn't thought about the timer solution until now.

But I'm having trouble working out what will turn the pump on when you fit a timer like this.
Lets assume that you have just flushed the toilet and the pump has run for the set period of time.
Pump is now off and you want to use the toilet again - what turns it on again?

Sorry - I can't think of anything apart from repairing it.

 

[jfm]

You're correct hurricane. This won't work. The only sensible way to control the motor in this system is a vac switch with leak free plumbing.

It just needs repairing. Could be a simple bit of crud in the inlet duckbill which is a simple repair compared with fitting a non suitable time switch

There is a lot of barking up wrong trees going on here.

When doing the duckbills remember the 1 1/2 inch bsp threads on the vac pumps are left handed.

 

[Portofino]

Also if the OP goes ahead and fits this new switch ---- because the pumps been " timed out " so to speak not created enough Vac ,as per Hurricane ( if I understood his point correctly ? )
In the " timed out " period because the leak has not been fixed the vac will just deplete to a lower or zero level .
Once the new timer reconnects the pump ,it's gonna go like mad to play catch up on the vac , which it can,t - cos of the leak , then presume " time out " with some vac but will that be enough ?

I can,t see how timing out the vac pump prematurely before it's reached operating Vac and then forcing it to sit silently while the rest of the vac escapes is gonna work .

In defence if sea land - the book is very clear about service items it's just boat builders hide the unit in a small boat in awkward places ,that needs factory know how on how to get at .
Further more from memory there's 20 odd variants in the parts section.
Sod's law determines that via E bay or what ever your service kit that you carefully ordered will not fit .
So I can see why there is resistance to doing it by the book .
As said by JRudge and myself it's a € grand / bog -- to do properly.

 

[Portofino]

It's because fitting Vac bogs eases the installation .
It's to do with none Vac needing a probably a higher drop from bowl to holding tank ,and an easier steeper run ,cos it's relying in gravity when the macerator pump has finished to fill the tank .So your pipe runs ideally need to be steep .

With Vac the builder can get away with shallow pipe runs or even almost level ,maybe higher ( not ideal ) tank .**
When functioning correctly the Vac / suck makes up for lack of vertical run .
So wide shallow V max beam caravan type hull .low deadrise , maxed out accommodation etc , then Vac flush is the answer .if sterndrives and eroom space tight etc .

So with say Hurricanes P 67 , although there obviously is depth under the floor of all the bogs it's still easier to go the Vac route because the pipe runs are easier to do and the final holding tank position height wise is not so critical .

Which brings me round to retro fitting none Vac -- although it's seemingly happened to work on the SQd 58 for JFM ,JRudge ,there's no guarantee it's just a straight swop on other boats especially small stern drive / space / packaging @ a premium boats with not so deep deadrise s for vertical drop .

As said ^^^^^ there gotta be a reason for the Vac bogs popularity with builders some of which are considered reputable and high end

** seen that the tank mounted higher in the E room than the toilet -- all Vac .-- didn't buy the boat needless the say.
Easy to get at and service etc -

 

[Grubble]

I hadn't thought about the timer solution until now.

But I'm having trouble working out what will turn the pump on when you fit a timer like this.
Lets assume that you have just flushed the toilet and the pump has run for the set period of time.
Pump is now off and you want to use the toilet again - what turns it on again?

Sorry - I can't think of anything apart from repairing it.

Well, either the pump vacuum switch will have turned it off eventually, or if not he will have to reset it by turning the toilet circuit off and back on again at the breaker. He says it only happens occasionally so this might not be too big a problem for him compared to fixing/replacing the toilet.

 

[Hurricane]

When doing the duckbills remember the 1 1/2 inch bsp threads on the vac pumps are left handed.

I've hear you say this before but (unless I've got it very wrong) the threads are normal right handed ones.
That said, I have a problem with one of mine now where there isn't enough thread to tighten the connection with the duckbill fitted.
Over time, this has lead to the thread on this one stripping.
The temporary solution was to remove that duckbill (remember there are two in each position).
Yes - I know this is temporary but I just wanted something that worked for a couple of weeks whilst the family were out.

Pumps running on can be caused by a number of things.
1 - Water leaking from the toilet bowl - as mentioned by the OP
2 - Duckbills requiring cleaning (I seem to remember you stating "nuts" in the duckbills) or replacing (they get worn over time thus not sealing)
IMO, duckbills are expensive for what they are.
3 - The pressure switches eventually fail to operate (both in low and high)
A low pressure failure results in the pumps running on
A high pressure failure results in the pumps NEVER running

I remember bringing up the subject about 2 years ago and you saying at the time that I should replace them with Tecma.
At the time (like the OP), I didn't see a point and immediately thought it too expensive.
After our summer cruise this year - enough is enough - the old Vac systems have to go.
And after a bit of research, it was very clear that the replacement isn't that expensive - and, in my case, will actually save costs.
Last year, I replaced a vac generator completely and that one is the only one now working properly.
To me this meant that to get the vac system running effectively, it would be best to replace the other vac generators.
These vac generators, bought as spares, are selling at around £1000
see here http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dometic-S...646752?hash=item2120e2aba0:g:cE4AAOSw4CFYqwci
I did manage to get mine at a very good price from Coastal Rides but spares like this at good prices are very limited.

Now compare this with a completely new Planus system (yes the complete system) for list price of £700
See - this page
https://www.aquamare.co.uk/shop/planus-artic-marine-toilet-2/
To me this is a "no brainer" and I should have taken the advice a couple of years ago.

I'm going out in November to fit them so I will be able to comment on the Planus ones then.
My final decision to switch to Planus was when I found that Princess are now using them in all their current models.

 

[Hurricane]

Well, either the pump vacuum switch will have turned it off eventually, or if not he will have to reset it by turning the toilet circuit off and back on again at the breaker. He says it only happens occasionally so this might not be too big a problem for him compared to fixing/replacing the toilet.

But thats the point - the vac switch isn't operating - hence the pump is running on.
More importantly, there is a leak somewhere causing the water in the toilet bowl to drain out.

Sorry - this system should be repaired not bodged.

 

[Hurricane]

It's because fitting Vac bogs eases the installation .
It's to do with none Vac needing a probably a higher drop from bowl to holding tank ,and an easier steeper run ,cos it's relying in gravity when the macerator pump has finished to fill the tank .So your pipe runs ideally need to be steep .

With Vac the builder can get away with shallow pipe runs or even almost level ,maybe higher ( not ideal ) tank .**
When functioning correctly the Vac / suck makes up for lack of vertical run .
So wide shallow V max beam caravan type hull .low deadrise , maxed out accommodation etc , then Vac flush is the answer .if sterndrives and eroom space tight etc .

So with say Hurricanes P 67 , although there obviously is depth under the floor of all the bogs it's still easier to go the Vac route because the pipe runs are easier to do and the final holding tank position height wise is not so critical .

Which brings me round to retro fitting none Vac -- although it's seemingly happened to work on the SQd 58 for JFM ,JRudge ,there's no guarantee it's just a straight swop on other boats especially small stern drive / space / packaging @ a premium boats with not so deep deadrise s for vertical drop .

As said ^^^^^ there gotta be a reason for the Vac bogs popularity with builders some of which are considered reputable and high end

** seen that the tank mounted higher in the E room than the toilet -- all Vac .-- didn't buy the boat needless the say.
Easy to get at and service etc -

Not sure that I agree with this
Where do you get your information?
These new toilet systems (Tecma and Planus anyway) can pump up to 80m of pipe up to 9m high.
So there should be no limit in boats like most of ours.
Hence Princess now using these toilets.

 

[MapisM]

Not sure that I agree with this

I'm sure I don't.

Porto, I've seen Tecmas retrofitted to more different boats than I can remember.
I don't know vac toilets well enough to figure whether they can be easier/faster to install for builders, but even assuming they are (which might well be one reason for choosing them), fitting Tecmas is no big deal anyway for any builder worth its salt, regardless of any layout constraint.

 

[Hurricane]

I'm sure I don't.

Porto, I've seen Tecmas retrofitted to more different boats than I can remember.
I don't know vac toilets well enough to figure whether they can be easier/faster to install for builders, but even assuming they are (which might well be one reason for choosing them), fitting Tecmas is no big deal anyway for any builder worth its salt, regardless of any layout constraint.

In fact, I am sure that a Tecma toilet is way easier to install.
Far less pipework - you should see the amount that I'm planning on removing - all pipes potentially containing nasty smelly stuff.
The supplier of my replacement Planus units said that I COULD simply join the input to the vac unit to the output of the vac unit but I'm planning on removing as much pipework as possible also ensuring butyl rubber pipes etc.

That said, there is a potential problem retrofitting.
Princess only installed 3mm cables to feed the lower power vac units.
I am having to upgrade the wiring to 6mm (and MCBs etc) to cope with the higher loads.
So not completely straight forward.

 

[jrudge]

In fact, I am sure that a Tecma toilet is way easier to install.
Far less pipework - you should see the amount that I'm planning on removing - all pipes potentially containing nasty smelly stuff.
The supplier of my replacement Planus units said that I COULD simply join the input to the vac unit to the output of the vac unit but I'm planning on removing as much pipework as possible also ensuring butyl rubber pipes etc.

That said, there is a potential problem retrofitting.
Princess only installed 3mm cables to feed the lower power vac units.
I am having to upgrade the wiring to 6mm (and MCBs etc) to cope with the higher loads.
So not completely straight forward.

I would not bother ... the load is very short term and I am sure the wiring is fine.

Vacuflush has so many parts it must be harder to fit than a WC, controller and a bit of pipe!

Over complicated hence the unreliability.

OP - a timer simply cannot work. As per my post and others it will just shut the pump up. Vacuum will leak and your deposit will just drop down the hole. Yuk.

Before flushing you need to prime the system with vacuum and your timer has turned it off.

You could have a manual controller in the heads to trigger, but this is getting very heath robinson. If money is a concern ( I appreciate it is for many of us) stick in a Jabsco as opposed to a Tecma. Vacuflush is sadly junk and expensive junk at that.

 

[Hurricane]

I would not bother ... the load is very short term and I am sure the wiring is fine.

Clearly states the wire sizes in the Planus installation guides.
I'm going to stick to the correct wire sizes even though, I agree with you.
I would need to change the MCBs anyway and they are designed to protect the wires - not the equipment.

 

[jfm]

I've hear you say this before but (unless I've got it very wrong) the threads are normal right handed ones.
That said, I have a problem with one of mine now where there isn't enough thread to tighten the connection with the duckbill fitted.
Over time, this has lead to the thread on this one stripping.
The temporary solution was to remove that duckbill (remember there are two in each position).

Hurricane, I'll bet you a beer that the threads are left handed. I've done more of these than I care to remember and they have all been left handed threads. Also, I don't recognise your "two duckbills" comment. On the sealand T series pump there is one duckbill each side of the diaphragm and a failure of either one disables the pump, as with any diaphragm pump. If you have two it feels like Princess have made a mod. I'd be interested to see a picture because I cannot see the sense in such a mod.
Of course the threads (plastic) will strip if someone forgets they are lefthanded and tries to undo them with a big spanner!

 

[jfm]

It's because fitting Vac bogs eases the installation .
It's to do with none Vac needing a probably a higher drop from bowl to holding tank ,and an easier steeper run ,cos it's relying in gravity when the macerator pump has finished to fill the tank .So your pipe runs ideally need to be steep .

With Vac the builder can get away with shallow pipe runs or even almost level ,maybe higher ( not ideal ) tank .**
When functioning correctly the Vac / suck makes up for lack of vertical run .
So wide shallow V max beam caravan type hull .low deadrise , maxed out accommodation etc , then Vac flush is the answer .if sterndrives and eroom space tight etc .

So with say Hurricanes P 67 , although there obviously is depth under the floor of all the bogs it's still easier to go the Vac route because the pipe runs are easier to do and the final holding tank position height wise is not so critical .

Which brings me round to retro fitting none Vac -- although it's seemingly happened to work on the SQd 58 for JFM ,JRudge ,there's no guarantee it's just a straight swop on other boats especially small stern drive / space / packaging @ a premium boats with not so deep deadrise s for vertical drop .

As said ^^^^^ there gotta be a reason for the Vac bogs popularity with builders some of which are considered reputable and high end

** seen that the tank mounted higher in the E room than the toilet -- all Vac .-- didn't buy the boat needless the say.
Easy to get at and service etc -

Portofino that is just 100% wrong I'm afraid. Every single word of it.

 

[Hurricane]

Hurricane, I'll bet you a beer that the threads are left handed. I've done more of these than I care to remember and they have all been left handed threads. Also, I don't recognise your "two duckbills" comment. On the sealand T series pump there is one duckbill each side of the diaphragm and a failure of either one disables the pump, as with any diaphragm pump. If you have two it feels like Princess have made a mod. I'd be interested to see a picture because I cannot see the sense in such a mod.
Of course the threads (plastic) will strip if someone forgets they are lefthanded and tries to undo them with a big spanner!

Ahh - mine are J Series
See this exploded diagram (parts no 5) - 2 on inlet to pump - 2 on outlet from pump

However, I do have other pumps like this on the boat - namely the pump to sea (no vac box of course) which has been as good as gold so I will keep in mind your left hand thread comment which may be applicable there.

Of course the threads (plastic) will strip if someone forgets they are lefthanded and tries to undo them with a big spanner!

 

[Hurricane]

For information on this thread, I've just found the T series pump exploded diag

EDIT
Ahh - the left hand thread is detailed!!!

 

[Portofino]

Portofino that is just 100% wrong I'm afraid. Every single word of it.

JFM So what's the USP of Vac bogs from Sealand , keeping in mind importing them from over the pond .
They Sunseeker , Princess ,and Fairline I hope did not fit them out of badness

Knowing full well there is / was a better system ? - better in less £ , less instal costs , or any thing else over a pumped / macerator??
I reckon they can cope with flat ish drops of pipe work , better .Less chance of stagnation areas in inadvertent shallow U bends etc .
You would not want the tecma pumping uphill to "80 M " relying on presumed one way valves to prevent back flow refilling the bowls .
You ideally need when the boats being built before they attach the deck , the tank to be as low as poss and the bogs as high and the pipe runs as steep -- even thought the " product " is actively pumped .
" product " left sitting in shallow / horizontal ish pipe runs is asking for trouble ---- a few years down the line .

With regards the most rear bog -- crew cabin and tank position , it's possible due to change of attitude ( bow rising ,riding bow high etc ) there is the maximum risk of back flow from a full or nearly tank into the lower bowl .
Seapage through the macerator and pump impeller .
With a functional Vac flush this can't happen .
Ideally one would want to see the boat black water schematic and tip the diagram 10-15 degrees and look at the position of the most rear bowl and tank fittings .

 

[jrudge]

Clearly states the wire sizes in the Planus installation guides.
I'm going to stick to the correct wire sizes even though, I agree with you.
I would need to change the MCBs anyway and they are designed to protect the wires - not the equipment.

FYI The vac flush on mine were 10a and the new wcs have never tripped them.

 

[Portofino]

Page 5 section 4 "mounting the vacuum pump "
As you can see can be 0.9 M Higher ---- ideal for small flat bottomed " caravans " or any other lack of fall instal
Vac sucks the pipework clean in theory preventing bowl regurgitation irrespective of attitude running as long as it's more / less no more than 0.9 higher .
As said lower the better --- buts that's the usp .

https://www.marinesan.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/vht manual.pdf


Where as page 5 of a typical macerator/ pump
https://newcontent.westmarine.com/d...uals/PLUMBING/ThetfordEasyFitInstallation.pdf

Here states the tank needs to be as low as possible not quote Hurricane "up to 80 M higher "
Relies on gravity to prevent regurgitation ---- hence my hold your horses lads just cos it retro fits into a pair of sqwadie 58. S
Doesn't follow they will retro fit in the Op ,s or others if the sealand vac pump is level or worse up to 0.9 higher than bowl .
My inference of steepest pipe fall where possible is true , with none Vac .