Time/Ratings calc

[Plevier]

just about every other measurement system has died out, leaving IRC as (in the UK anyway) the only game in town.

Why does nobody in UK use ORC?

When we were picking up our boat in Holland, they were curious about why we use IRC. Throughout the rest of Europe ORC seems to dominate and they regard IRC as a nuisance if they want to do any UK events. They say ORC is much easier and cheaper to get (at least the Club certificate), it's a more comprehensive rating system (different numbers for different conditions and courses, as well as an overall one), and is not so secretive. You can go to the ORC website and view any boat's certificate. For your own boat you can put in proposed changes to rig etc and see how they will affect your rating. I don't know how many ORC certificates are in current issue but when you look at the website it seems to be a hell of a lot!

(Genuine question from a novice with no axe to grind!)

Edit - there are 87,156 certificates viewable on line! Not all current year though.

 

[flaming]

Why does nobody in UK use ORC?

Because it's not British....

When IMS imploded in the UK CHS, which was to become IRC, had been started really as a reaction to the failings of IMS. That rule had got to the point where a grand prix 40 footer had a wooden keel and internal ballast and went upwind at 5 knots. And there were supposedly more requests for redress relating to which wind band the committee had applied than protests for anything else.

I gather (though as I've only raced in the UK under IRC, I'm not 100% on the detail) that ORC is basically the child of IMS, and has taken quite a lot of development to get where it is now. But for all that development time we in the UK were quite happy with IRC and laughing at the Europeans and their silly rating system.

Might now be worth revisiting, but the momentum is with IRC in the UK, principally because it's run by an offshoot of RORC, and all the top level races (Fastnet, RBI etc) are run by RORC. Can't really see the inshore events going to ORC and forcing boats to have 2 ratings!

 

[Plevier]

I found the figures, IRC says 5985 certificates in 2015, ORC says 10,007, so 67% more.
1540 of the IRCs are in UK, second comes France with 760, which did surprise me.
No geographic breakdown for ORC.

I take it you mean all the top level races in the UK. There are some other pretty big ones! I notice some e.g. Sydney-Hobart have both IRC and ORC results.

 

[Georgio]

How did the old girl fare on the scales Georgio?

She is nearly 250kg heavier than recorded on the certificate so that should help get the rating down a bit.

 

[H4B]

She is nearly 250kg heavier than recorded on the certificate so that should help get the rating down a bit.

Keep us updated with your rating change. What boat ?

I had hoped to drum up collective support for weigh when we all get lifted back in but alas no one else was interested. Wouldn't really help the 'club spirit' for just one boat to be gaining yet more perceived advantage so have passed for this year . It would be interesting to know the rating change though.

 

[Georgio]

Keep us updated with your rating change. What boat ?

From what I have gathered from reading around the subject each 50-55KG of weight should reduce the handicap by circa 1 point but don't take that as absolute, just something I found online and there may be other factors at play such as the overhangs that change with weight.

The actual rating difference will also be influenced by a new genoa I'm having built and don't get have the final measurements for, it should be about the same size as what I have now.

 

[johnb15]

I have heard the 1point for 50kg mentioned in the past - was toying with getting IRC weighed as when weighed in the boat lift (recently calibrated at +/- 1%) was 600kg over the book weight. There is probably 100kg or so of kit to remove for IRC weighing, but that is quite a hit.

 

[markhomer]

When weighing boats for endorsed certs waterline overhangs are always also taken .

Dont know if rorc assess this when self submitting weights for non endorsed certs , especially when way off standard , i just send send in the numbers , dont grind the organ .if anything is awry sure office will ask .

Certainly when weighing and measuring for endorsed certs , weight changes cannot be directly proportional to rating changes , immersion of different hull forms affect this , tipping points in formulae etc .

However , true weight opposed to standard is usually beneficial to rating similarily true sail sizes .

As an observation ive made over the years , there are few owners that appreciate what irc weighing trim is , i can think of only 3 boats in 5 years that havent had to remove something for weighing . So if doing yourself be ruthless , we measurers are to be fair to all ��

Ps for an ENDORSED cert irc would never accept data from a travel hoist .

 

[markhomer]

Received my IRC 2016 Yearbook yesterday and all the questions that one might ask are answered at the back.

Perhaps , as its the intention to grow the adoption of the rule and rating further, it might be an idea to show to photographs of more typical club cruiser events in addition to the glossy high tech boats that are beyond most people's budgets.

First photo of an event shows an old swan , hanse , j something .

Cork week various off the shelf production boats , elsewhere , theres,old classic wooden boats , 707s , first, elans , beneteaus ,jeanneaus , various j boats ( not the monster js ) , sigma 33 s and even an achilles thrown in .

Off course theres some astronomically priced one offs , but , there are more that arent than you are suggesting . A decent 707 starts around £4k

Check out the results for regional championships , winners in class include : s&s41, giles 39 classic , H boat , various old 1/4 tonners , laser 28 , ufo 27 , j24 , contessa 32 , sunshine 38 , mh hs30 .

Hopefully that should encourage folks

Would have been disingenuous to have pictures of regattas racing under other formulae

 

[markhomer]

I found the figures, IRC says 5985 certificates in 2015, ORC says 10,007, so 67% more.
1540 of the IRCs are in UK, second comes France with 760, which did surprise me.
No geographic breakdown for ORC.

I take it you mean all the top level races in the UK. There are some other pretty big ones! I notice some e.g. Sydney-Hobart have both IRC and ORC results.

Rorc have released this re relative irc orc figures

http://www.ircrating.org/49-concentric-circles/486-rorc-response

 

[flaming]

Rorc have released this re relative irc orc figures

http://www.ircrating.org/49-concentric-circles/486-rorc-response

Who knew rating authorities got so heated!?

 

[Plevier]

Rorc have released this re relative irc orc figures

http://www.ircrating.org/49-concentric-circles/486-rorc-response

Very defensive!
I can't locate the referenced press release but there is an overview of the ORC presentation to the ICRA at http://afloat.ie/sail/icra/item/31584-orc-interest-from-ireland

 

[Georgio]

Keep us updated with your rating change. What boat ?

SNIP

It would be interesting to know the rating change though.

Well, it appears that going to the effort and expense of getting weighed and overhangs checked was a huge waste of time and money. Despite being nearly 250KG heavier with very little change in the overhangs my rating has dropped by 1 single point. Very disappointing.

The only silver lining is that it forced me to go through and rationalise all the gear I keep in the boat so in racing trim she should be a bit lighter than last year.

 

[markhomer]

Not really a waste of time and money , you now know your boat in its current trim has the correct rating , the rule is tweaked every year , so any changes due to your increased rated weight may be masked . Its all up,to you now

 

[Georgio]

Not really a waste of time and money , you now know your boat in its current trim has the correct rating , the rule is tweaked every year , so any changes due to your increased rated weight may be masked . Its all up,to you now

Annoyingly true I expect, I just had my heart set on a few more points off the number.