Time expired flares and Fire extinguishers

[Nostrodamus]

When we bought our boat the previous owner had kindly left two offshore canisters of flares and the fire extinguishers. Unfortunately one pack of flares was out of date by a few years and the other had just run out. The fire extinguishers had also date expired even though the little valve on them was in the green.
I have managed to dispose of the very old canister of flares (legally) and have replaced all the fire extinguishers apart from the one in the engine room which requires a small mortgage to get a new one. I have got EPIRB, and two DSC radios aboard as well as a good few buckets.
Should I get rid of the other flares, buy some more or not and replace my engine room fire extinguisher?
When I go abroad is this something authorities will ever check on and can you be fined if they are out of date

 

[Tranona]

surprised you are asking the question. If you are going on a long passage get new flares (if you want to have flares at all). Yes there have been cases of people being fined in France and Portugal.

Perhaps you need to join the RYA and Cruising Association to keep yourself up to date on such issues that affect cruising.

 

[Sans Bateau]

Good move, thats the same as I have done. Flares as a means of summoning help should be assigned to history. That said, I still keep two red HH and two orange smoke for the purpose of helping any SAR pin point my location once on site.

 

[Nostrodamus]

Intresting,
two replies, two different anwers. If you can be fined for having out of date flares abroad can you be fined for not having any?
I know the coatguard are complaining about chinese lanterns floating around. These can looklike parchuteflares but no one pays any intention.
A friend also had his boat "saftey inspected" last week. They checked his fire extinguishers but said the one in the engine was not part of the requirements. Is this correct and if so why?

 

[Victoria Sponge]

Yes in France you can be fined for not having any and fined if the ones you have are out of date. Like with everything it depends where you're going to sail. We've just legally disposed of our out of date flares and we are not planning to replace them, preferring to go down the EPIRB route. However, if we intend going to France we will have to revisit this plan.

 

[guernseyman]

IThey checked his fire extinguishers but said the one in the engine was not part of the requirements. Is this correct and if so why?

No point in placing a fire extinguisher too close to an obvious source of fire, where it might not be reachable in the event of a fire.

Before giving up on the idea of fire extinguishers, one might consider the possible reaction of the insurers.

 

[bluedragon]

The engine extinguisher would be an automatic though, would it not? I have thought about fitting one of these.

 

[Nostrodamus]

The engine extinguisher is th automatic mercury filled glass type but a small replacement which I should imagine will only work for about 30 seconds is 190 pounds. Refilling it is nerly the same ammount.
Where can I find the minimum flare requirements for France?

 

[Victoria Sponge]

The engine extinguisher is th automatic mercury filled glass type but a small replacement which I should imagine will only work for about 30 seconds is 190 pounds. Refilling it is nerly the same ammount.
Where can I find the minimum flare requirements for France?

The RNLI were very helpful when we had their SEACheck. We didn't ask that exact question, but they advised us that you have to have in date flares for France, otherwise you're fined.

 

[Tranona]

The engine extinguisher is th automatic mercury filled glass type but a small replacement which I should imagine will only work for about 30 seconds is 190 pounds. Refilling it is nerly the same ammount.
Where can I find the minimum flare requirements for France?

The RYA. I think Lady Sailor is wrong in saying it is a legal requirement in France to have flares on a UK boat. The equipment requirements for a UK boat do not include flares - nor any prescribed safety equipment. That is one of the reasons why you need to register your boat as the principle of comity means that other states recognise the UK requirements, even if there are differences from their own. There are however grey areas and fines for out of date flares are one of them. If you are cruising in another states teritorial waters (rather than just visiting a port or passing through) the state can impose conditions, and it could be argued that flares fall into this category. However, after a couple of cases there does not seem to be any further action.

With regard to fire extinguishers, again there is no requirement for a private pleasure boat under 24M to have any. There is a recommendation from the RNLI for safety equipment which is the basis for their checks, but it has no legal significance. On the other hand if your boat is used commercially then it has to be "coded" according to the appropriate MCA code for its intended scope of operation. Coding requires fire extinguishers and of course many other items. Many people, like me use the Code as a basis for our own equipment - and the requirements are freely available on the MCA website.

Once again I urge you to join the RYA and CA as there is a wealth of useful information available that would have answered many of the questions you have asked on here. I have no connection with either organisation, but glad that they exist as a good source of information on cruising.

 

[Sans Bateau]

Tranona speaks wisely.

 

[Victoria Sponge]

The RYA. I think Lady Sailor is wrong in saying it is a legal requirement in France to have flares on a UK boat. The equipment requirements for a UK boat do not include flares - nor any prescribed safety equipment. That is one of the reasons why you need to register your boat as the principle of comity means that other states recognise the UK requirements, even if there are differences from their own. There are however grey areas and fines for out of date flares are one of them. If you are cruising in another states teritorial waters (rather than just visiting a port or passing through) the state can impose conditions, and it could be argued that flares fall into this category. However, after a couple of cases there does not seem to be any further action.

With regard to fire extinguishers, again there is no requirement for a private pleasure boat under 24M to have any. There is a recommendation from the RNLI for safety equipment which is the basis for their checks, but it has no legal significance. On the other hand if your boat is used commercially then it has to be "coded" according to the appropriate MCA code for its intended scope of operation. Coding requires fire extinguishers and of course many other items. Many people, like me use the Code as a basis for our own equipment - and the requirements are freely available on the MCA website.

Once again I urge you to join the RYA and CA as there is a wealth of useful information available that would have answered many of the questions you have asked on here. I have no connection with either organisation, but glad that they exist as a good source of information on cruising.

If Lady Sailor is wrong then the RNLI are giving out the wrong information. I'd be delighted to be wrong about this as we have just disposed of our flares and we don't want to replace them.

 

[alant]

Yes in France you can be fined for not having any and fined if the ones you have are out of date. Like with everything it depends where you're going to sail. We've just legally disposed of our out of date flares and we are not planning to replace them, preferring to go down the EPIRB route. However, if we intend going to France we will have to revisit this plan.

How did you "legally dispose" of them?

 

[Victoria Sponge]

How did you "legally dispose" of them?

We left them with a outlet who will take them for you.

 

[Tranona]

If Lady Sailor is wrong then the RNLI are giving out the wrong information. I'd be delighted to be wrong about this as we have just disposed of our flares and we don't want to replace them.

The RNLI are not necessarily a good source of information on such matters - they only repeat what they might have read or heard - they have no remit on anything outside the UK.

It is true that there were a couple of cases reported a couple of years ago where overzealous French officials were alleged to have fined UK boat owners. However, I have not seen any further reports and I am pretty sure that the RYA established that it is not a requirement for British boats to carry flares in France. You will see a slightly longer explanation in my reply to the OP.

Overall the best sources of information on foreign "regulations" and the laws and conventions covering cruising in foreign places are firstly the RYA and then Cruising Association, although of course neither are 100% foolproof. You will discover when you read the comprehensive material on the Legal framework on the RYA site and in their publications that there are many inconsistences and ambiguities, not just in the rules and regulations, but in the consistency and rigour of their application from country to country.

However, in reality thousands of UK people cruise all over the world and never experience any problems if they follow the basic recommended procedures. The Liveboard Forum is a good place to pick up on what people experience.

 

[Tranona]

How did you "legally dispose" of them?

The MCA publishes a list of collection points round the country.

 

[Yeoman of England]

Flares Versus DSC

Good Afternoon All

An interesting conundrum. Flares cost money and have a short shelf life. Disposing of out of date munitions is now a nightmare. The MCA has a specifiic contract with specifically trained personnel to handle TEP's. Due to H&S rules we are no longer allowed to visit marinas and collect these munitions. The onus is now on the owner to transport them to the nearest MRCC. This is far from ideal.

EPIRBS again cost money, but they have been proven to be very effective.
DSC only works if the user is competent and within range of a shore station!

I do not know what the answer is - but please dispose of your old flares responsibly and read the DSC handbook !!!

Safe Sailing
Yeoman

 

[GrahamM376]

Yes in France you can be fined for not having any and fined if the ones you have are out of date. Like with everything it depends where you're going to sail.

Correct, same in Portugal as well. Also, any non-compliant (old gas) engine room fire extinguisher can lead to heavy fine.

There are notes on the RYA site to the effect of - once you're in someones territory, as opposed to passing through, you come under their regs. Over here, they could impose up to 1000 euro fine for not having life jackets in tender but, so far, we've only been *******ed.

As far as flares are concerned, a quick rub with acetone removes the date and there are plenty of cheap date printing stamps around - not of course that I'm suggesting anyone should do it.

 

[Tranona]

Correct, same in Portugal as well. Also, any non-compliant (old gas) engine room fire extinguisher can lead to heavy fine.

There are notes on the RYA site to the effect of - once you're in someones territory, as opposed to passing through, you come under their regs. Over here, they could impose up to 1000 euro fine for not having life jackets in tender but, so far, we've only been *******ed.

As far as flares are concerned, a quick rub with acetone removes the date and there are plenty of cheap date printing stamps around - not of course that I'm suggesting anyone should do it.

You are correct that the RYA warn that you could be subject to local requirements if you cruise or permanently base your boat in another country. In the UN convention the principle of comity applies only if you are on "innocent passage" which is a very narrow definition that only covers passing through the territory. In practice, however the majority of countries ignore that restriction and permit foreign boats to be based in their territory while complying only with their flag state regulations. Clearly this is the case because thousands of people base their boats in other countries without complying with local registration requirements.

As I explained earlier there are always grey areas where a state may impose their own regulations, for example having evidence of skipper competence to get a cruising permit in Croatia. There are also specific local taxes in many countries, France and Portugal for example which apply to all boats irrespective of nationality.

Unfortunately, there are, as I pointed out many anomolies and ambiguities, and when you add to this poor and variable enforcement by local officials, either through ignorance, laziness or incorrect instructions it is not surprising that individuals can expect variable experiences. These are, in fact uncommon, but annoying if they happen to you!

 

[KellysEye]

The problem with an automatic extingusher system is that any slipping belt will trigger it. Since they are normally gas not powder it won't damage anything but the refill is not cheap. I'm not against them just pointing something out.