Thumbs up for ketches

TQA said:
Henri Amel new athing or two about building boats for short handed cruising.

And nearly all of them were ketches.
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See also: Suhaili, Joshua, Gipsy Moth IV...also Ayesha (which I nearly bought once, I wonder if she's on here? There's at least one Biscay 36 on the forum)

I once crewed on a gaff-mudan ketch that actually slowed down when you hoisted the triangular mizzen, except on one specific point of sail..
 
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johnalison said:
I would agree about the Bermudan rig being ugly if it referred to masthead rigs, but a fractional rig can look stunning, especially when hard on the wind. Yawls can look awkward (not always) because of the 'gap'.
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Recently there was some info on the Julian Everitt Facebook page about the Swan 65 ketches which were improved with a taller mizzen and a bigger 'gap'. It seems the bigger the gap, the more performance the ketch rig gave on most points of sail. This was confirmed by their performances in the Whitbread Round The World races.

Mind you, this is about 40 years too late for most ketch rigged yachts...
 
Tim O said:
Hi...do you pole your genoa out when goosewinging it? I like the idea of the mizzen set dead centre to counteract the roll you always seem to get with goosewing....must try that (Colvic Countess 33 ketch...like Lady In Bed)
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Yes, we always pole out the genoa when goosewinged. Centre sheeted mizzen is a godsend in rolly conditions
 
Ladybirdgaffcutter said:
See also: Suhaili, Joshua, Gipsy Moth IV...also Ayesha (which I nearly bought once, I wonder if she's on here? There's at least one Biscay 36 on the forum)

I once crewed on a gaff-mudan ketch that actually slowed down when you hoisted the triangular mizzen, except on one specific point of sail..
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Gipsy Moth IV, was a dog according to Chichester, not sure the rig was at fault though.
 
I fly a [FONT=Roboto, HelveticaNeue, Arial, sans-serif]gennaker from my mizzen (see avatar) when the wind is on the quarter, sheeted to the end of the mizzen boom.
Yes, you have to be a bit careful with a WG spinning, but the way it's arranged, you have to lower and rehoist if you want to tack.[/FONT]
 
alant said:
Gipsy Moth IV, was a dog according to Chichester, not sure the rig was at fault though.
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True, and ketch rigs are of course old and slow now having been been superseded by modern technology.

But some are easy on the eye and Eric Tabarly explored double masted boats in the 1960s with his Pen Duicks II and III. Then he moved onto multis and finally a boat which is really the forefather of Open 60s. That said, his first love was the original gaff cutter Fyfe Pen Duick I dating from the 1890s and he helped restore as a child.

Nice boats do seem to age ever so gracefully if well cared for.
 
andygc said:
Old, maybe. Slow?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFle9YZCzLw
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I guess that's the point: one can certainly make ketches fast and that boat seems quite cool with a modern rig and spars dividing the power between two fully battened mainsails. Freedoms were innovative but still slower than comparable monohulls and I guess with somewhat frumpy boats that couldn't ultimately crack the new boat market.
 
dom said:
ketch rigs are of course old and slow now having been been superseded by modern technology.
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The ketch rig is not a slow rig. It is less efficient upwind than a sloop simply due to the windage of the mizzen mast. Its less relevant when the wind gets over 20kts as you are reefed down so the sloop has less of an advantage. Off the wind the ketch rig performs better than the equivelent sloop. We spent a couple of season cruising in company with a sister ship rigged as a sloop so we were able to compare the same hull directly with both rigs. We sailed hundreds of miles in company in all sort of weather so this wasnt a one off.
The ketch rig is still a good choice for short handed sailing on boats over 40ft even with modern technology. Its a practical rig that gives lots of options for sail handling in poor weather. Being able to drop the main and sail on working jib and mizzen in a gale is a pleasure. Not having a boom swinging around over the cockpit in those conditions is great. The boat sails very well under working jib and mizzen.
If you want to race around the cans, of course you would be better off in a sloop but that's not what the ketch rig is for.
In the real world how many cruisers tack to windward in their cruising boat? Out here in the Caribbean most yachts seem to engine directly in to the wind wether they are a ketch or a sloop.
 
geem said:
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In the real world how many cruisers tack to windward in their cruising boat? Out here in the Caribbean most yachts seem to engine directly in to the wind wether they are a ketch or a sloop.
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Sooner or later, ketch enthusiasts seem to admit they prefer motoring to windward.
 
geem said:
The ketch rig is not a slow rig. It is less efficient upwind than a sloop simply due to the windage of the mizzen mast. Its less relevant when the wind gets over 20kts as you are reefed down so the sloop has less of an advantage................................
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Ketches dating from the 1960s to early-1980s, which is when most were built, are nowhere near as fast offwind as modern monohulls owing to vast improvements in hull design, foils, rigs, etc. No different to the way a modern car will be better and faster than a 1970s one.

Old cars are still be fab, as can old boats; indeed older designs have some great features like the way mizzen masts help a vessel lie to anchor.

They are less good at other things and that's okay.
 
lw395 said:
Sooner or later, ketch enthusiasts seem to admit they prefer motoring to windward.
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Haha, I am not a motorboater. We probably sail more than most people out here. I sail for the pleasure of it. I especially like sailing fast and well. It gives me great pleasure to sail past all the modern sloop designs of the same size as us. I cant think of one modern cruising boat of equivalent size that has ever overtaken out here on the trips between the islands.
 
dom said:
No chance ketches dating from the 1960s to early-1980s, which is when most were built, are anywhere near as fast offwind as modern monohulls owing to vast improvements in hull design, foils, rigs, etc. No different to the way a modern car will be better and faster than a 1970s one.

Old cars are still be fab, as can old boats; indeed older designs have some great features like the way mizzen masts help a vessel lie to anchor.

They are less good at other things and that's okay.
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Indeed, it's great that there are many types of boat and people enjoy using them in different ways.
I don't have much time for 'my type of boat is better than your type of boat'.

I recently re-read a book about Jolie Brise, 3 Fastnet wins suggests there's something to be said for only having one mast.
 
geem said:
The ketch rig is not a slow rig. It is less efficient upwind than a sloop simply due to the windage of the mizzen mast. Its less relevant when the wind gets over 20kts as you are reefed down so the sloop has less of an advantage. Off the wind the ketch rig performs better than the equivalent sloop.
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It takes 20 knots to get mine moving!
 
lw395 said:
A good mate of mine will tell you "Ketch is indeed a great rig for not going anywhere, particularly upwind."

Maybe that's not really fair, but it's rare to get overtaken by one.
I quite like his line 'if you want more spars, get a bloody bowsprit".

Ketches are normally classified by the power of their diesel engines.
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Ahem... :)

7863500_orig.jpg
 
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