Thru hull fitting issues

[A_8]

One of the boats we looked at around Nice last week was a 2010 model and all the underwater hull fittings were in really bad shape with white greenish grainy stuff very visible inside the hull. Even though I initially thought it's not a big issue as they are replaceable I later started to think it is odd and there must be a reason that perhaps is a bigger issue, beyond finding the cause I am thinking the stern gear and props might be in even worse shape.

The way we typically handle boats in the Nordics is to have them on land for 6 months or so every year which makes life a lot easier for the fittings so the question I have is it normal for the fittings to get bad in 8 yrs if in med water all year?

I don't know the make of the fittings but have no reason to think they are inferior or generally low quality.

 

[Portofino]

Without a pic it’s difficult to comment on the example .
My boat comes out for 1/52 , the other 51 weeks it’s in ,as are the vast majority of SoF boats.
There are hangerage facilities about for those that want that .
No obvious detriment to the exposed metal work .
Stern gear seperate is anode protected as I suspect the boat you looked at ?

What modal / make was it ?

The THF I had replaced+ seacocks by a yard @ approx 12 years old .They were visibly fine , a few cocks were seized .The reason was more from an insurance POV , some record of maintenance and “ seaworthiness “.
So mine are all new circa 2015 .I volunteered to do this as that’s how I interpreted “ maintaining in a seaworthy condition “ Admittedly a bit OTT bill was four figures .

I don’t know exactly from memory what they were but they were the best stuff , Yard is a big operation and looks after lots of high end boats and does not cut corners .

The outside part and inside looks normal no evidence of corrosion or dezincification - pale and pink .

I regularly excerise the seacocks but the PO I suspect did not .

Having said all this the typical worm / crustaceans in the SoF attach to metal are grey / white .
Hence the request for a pic as I can see that a newby can easily be confused .

 

[jfm]

One of the boats we looked at around Nice last week was a 2010 model and all the underwater hull fittings were in really bad shape with white greenish grainy stuff very visible inside the hull. Even though I initially thought it's not a big issue as they are replaceable I later started to think it is odd and there must be a reason that perhaps is a bigger issue, beyond finding the cause I am thinking the stern gear and props might be in even worse shape.

The way we typically handle boats in the Nordics is to have them on land for 6 months or so every year which makes life a lot easier for the fittings so the question I have is it normal for the fittings to get bad in 8 yrs if in med water all year?

I don't know the make of the fittings but have no reason to think they are inferior or generally low quality.

Hard to tell without a pic. 8 years old and ordinary brass = you should change them/ 8 years old and bronze = [perfectly ok. alas most French yards stock and fit ordinary brass

 

[jfm]

So mine are all new circa 2015 .I volunteered to do this as that’s how I interpreted “ maintaining in a seaworthy condition “ Admittedly a bit OTT bill was four figures .

I don’t know exactly from memory what they were but they were the best stuff , Yard is a big operation and looks after lots of high end boats and does not cut corners .

I know you rate AriedeBoom; personally I think a lot of their workers are crummy and I have seen hideous work performed by them with my own eyes. I would never use that yard unsupervised. Happy to agree to disagree, but point is that lots of Fr yards including AdeB regularly use ordinary brass. C'est normal. Very few default to bronze and I certainly would not think AdeB default to bronze from what I've seen of their work. So beware that you might have 3 years of life left in yours. Or 23

 

[Portofino]

I know you rate AriedeBoom; personally I think a lot of their workers are crummy and I have seen hideous work performed by them with my own eyes. I would never use that yard unsupervised. Happy to agree to disagree, but point is that lots of Fr yards including AdeB regularly use ordinary brass. C'est normal. Very few default to bronze and I certainly would not think AdeB default to bronze from what I've seen of their work. So beware that you might have 3 years of life left in yours. Or 23

Maestrini DZR , is what the invoice says .They did a survey before quoting .like for like
I was there for a week doing the general annual maintenance “ supervising “ .
I say that lightly as it took 2 fellers 2 days just to remove the main engine TRH fittings .They used a special saw to flute them from the inside after grinding off the flange ,and then a hydraulic jack + gig set on the yard floor outside to push the remaining tube vertical and out from the inside .
There’s absolutely no way I could have done that on a DIY basis .Tools ,know how , nausse etc .
From memory the new cocks were somthing like €340 each ex tax for the mains which were the largest single item .

The look after Rivas and many Ferretti gp boats as well as coast guard , etc .

Sure the Major Fr builders have a tendency to hide behind a 1998 Eu directive that says something along the lines of “ corrosion resistance “ and as you say pins a figure to the mast so to speak of a min of 5 yrs .Plain Brass meeets this requirement , it’s dirt cheap too .

AdB have a large onsite shop that stocks all types and a very close association with France Helices who stock the whole Maestrini DZR range - AdB and FrH both have trade counters open to the public too -
Fr H ,s is down the road @ Cannes le Bocca who stock quality metal work .In fact I,ll wager Fr Helices don,t do plain brass anything.They are Maestrini agents stock the lot .

I did not have to promt them it’s what they recommend btw .

No we are a Maestrini DZR boat through and through from Fr H

But I get your point about watching out re Fr boats and some yards re plain brass .

 

[MapisM]

Porto, I'm afraid that DZR actually means brass.
Much better that what is usually called plain vanilla brass (and Maestrini does build top quality stuff), but bronze it ain't, anyway.
In fact, both Maestrini and Guidi also have bronze in their range, which is even more expensive.
I suppose that in a durability scale, if brass is good for say 8yrs and bronze for 25, DZR is somewhere in between, but don't ask me a number.
You can read more here about DZR from Maestrini themselves, if you're interested.

 

[MapisM]

On a slightly separate note, has anyone ever heard about pros/cons of the following Guidi valves?
This is the related webpage, but it's as useful as a chocolate teapot...

 

[Bandit]

Many European manufacturers use Brass as its cheap and generally does the job unless there is a bonding or earth leak in which case they can fail, but normally brass passes the RCD 5 year rule.

For a bit more money use DZR which is a much better quality, ensure the balls are the same material some use nickel coated brass which is no good.

Most of the cost in replacing skin fittings with a yard or contractor is in the labour not the skin fittings use all DZR.

If the fittings are leaking, sweating through the metal or are seized they need replacing.

Keep a diagram of all skin fitting and when you replace one tag it with a date. When you replace a fitting use new skin fitting , bends or tails , ball valves and jubilee clips.

Its a good system to look at testing and inspecting annually and every seven or eight years remove and replace with new. This way you can demonstrate to your insurer that you are being diligent with your maintenance in case of a problem. Using proper backing pads and sealing them correctly is the other part.

There are two schools of thought to bond or not to bond skin fittings with the anodes, I prefer to bond.

If you buy any boat of 5yrs old or more start off with You having replacing all skin fittings, and then change all every 7 to 8 yrs after that.

 

[vas]

... and then there's grp thru hulls and valves.
I have them now for 5yrs and never had any problems of either sticking or leaking.

I used Trudesign and v.happy with them.

[now cue on failing Marelon handles plz ]

V.

 

[MapisM]

I used Trudesign and v.happy with them.

Are you using them also for engines raw water intakes, V?
I would be happy to consider them whenever I will have to replace mine, but they are 3", and the last time I checked plastic valves they were only available in sizes nowhere near that...

 

[vas]

Are you using them also for engines raw water intakes, V?
I would be happy to consider them whenever I will have to replace mine, but they are 3", and the last time I checked plastic valves they were only available in sizes nowhere near that...

yes P.

all skin fittings and valves are trudesign.
however, I just checked they only go up to 2inches
I have 1.5inch engine intakes iirc and same or 2inch for the blackwater tank.

not sure about marelon though

V.

 

[A_8]

It was a French boat and I initially dismissed the boat so did not bother with any pics but it looked really bad, like they were leaking and discoulored.

I get what you're saying and appriciate the input.

I was also looking at trudesign researching the issue, anyone know what to expect in terms of usable life span for these?

 

[Portofino]

Porto, I'm afraid that DZR actually means brass.
Much better that what is usually called plain vanilla brass (and Maestrini does build top quality stuff), but bronze it ain't, anyway.
In fact, both Maestrini and Guidi also have bronze in their range, which is even more expensive.
I suppose that in a durability scale, if brass is good for say 8yrs and bronze for 25, DZR is somewhere in between, but don't ask me a number.
You can read more here about DZR from Maestrini themselves, if you're interested.

Like for like that’s all .
Salient point is the dissimilar metals part of your link , @ least they all the same stuff .
And what I volunteered to do fits in with Bandits theme - something to wave in front of a insurance accessor , tap him on the head if the phase “ maintenance in a seaworthy “ or what ever phase the current cock off is used in an attempt to refute a claim .
That was my motivation that’s all .The one removed were goog no evidence of any suspicious.
It’s just about 3 seacocks were seized so figured rather than replace them risking the dissimilar metal issue , AND Bandits point I went the whole hog .
Happy to repeat again in a timely manor .

It’s just with the 25 y thing and there’s a problem at 23 or 24 years some folks my question why you persisted on hanging on because they were bronze , or paps there’s been an innocent seacocks change to a dissimilar metal etc .

Each to there own on there own risk .

 

[MapisM]

Like for like that’s all

I agree with the principle of course, but do you mean in terms of having the same "new" material everywhere, or like for like vs. the original one?
If the latter, I would be surprised if Amati didn't use bronze, at least for the skin fittings.
Not only that's what I've got on the DP, but even my mid 90s Azzurro had bronze skin fittings - and her construction was as far from a money no object approach as you can think of…
In fact, I believe that bronze is actually a rather common choice among IT builders, aside from the most commercial ones, and/or on much smaller boats.
IIRC, also BartW had bronze stuff on BA, and he only replaced that recently, after more than a quarter of a century of faultless service.
I can't be positive on other brands, though. Maybe some Ferretti or AZ owners can confirm or correct, as appropriate...

 

[Portofino]

I agree with the principle of course, but do you mean in terms of having the same "new" material everywhere, or like for like vs. the original one?
If the latter, I would be surprised if Amati didn't use bronze, at least for the skin fittings.
Not only that's what I've got on the DP, but even my mid 90s Azzurro had bronze skin fittings - and her construction was as far from a money no object approach as you can think of…
In fact, I believe that bronze is actually a rather common choice among IT builders, aside from the most commercial ones, and/or on much smaller boats.
IIRC, also BartW had bronze stuff on BA, and he only replaced that recently, after more than a quarter of a century of faultless service.
I can't be positive on other brands, though. Maybe some Ferretti or AZ owners can confirm or correct, as appropriate...

It was born with MAN 510 s and two years later when the 700 came out the first owner commissioned theses guys https://www.tonissi.com/home/ to fit a pair .
The inlet TRH fittings for the new engines and strainers + cocks were replaced as part of the upgrade.
You can see where they glassed in the old holes as the new main engine cocks are in the opposite end of the ER .

On the same theme paps just as important is the black pipes in the ER - you know all those pipes that carry seawater to and from various components .
Again I elected ( year after new TTH fittings + cocks ) to have all those relaced + the clips .No external visible issues it’s just they were from 2003 and I think MAN service schedules witter on about a 10 y life .
Yard did that too and glad they did as the old ones were hard and inflexible .They made good templates .
Various sizes dia wise and various clip size .For me to do that would have been a false economy as they just charged out by the M of the stuff used - Vetus exhaust spec I believe.They stock reels of it .
For me to buy all that inventory would have been waste full and lead to frustration re wrong size etc .

While I,am on the subject other year I wanted new hydraulic hoses on the gear boxes .
They have a mini Pirtek making up machine and just removed the old 4 and made up another set - easy peasey ,and had the correct spanner’s for the twin disc box .
Don,t know what the service period of hydraulic hoses are , just thought hmmm ? They were only €300 + labour about 2 hours .

So P tell me
How old are your TTH + cocks fittings ?
Black seawater pipes in the ER ?
Hydraulic hoses ?

But as Bandit says with any boat ideally you need to plan a rolling RR program.
Ok new boats have a head start time wise but the owners have paid dearly in depreciation terms for the first [ insert your years ] before any of this kicks in .

So rewinding a bit to the start of this thread perspective buyers should factor in the rolling Repair / Replace ( RR) maintenance regime.
I sense on this forum many don,t and just wait for breakdowns .imho