This is quite PBO

[mcframe]

If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

If it's onboard, it will rust, rot or break - can you fix it?
(Didn't the Pardeys say something similar?)

Hmm - how about a hand-and-spanner burgee? ;->

 

[William_H]

Manifesto

What a lovely manifesto for days gone by. Reality is that things have changed in so many areas. It is now a throw away world like it on not.
Take a GPS for instance A Garmin Etrex wonderful; device but it just can not be fixed. So complex that even if you had a good manual on the device chances are it would take far longer ie cost more to repair than to build a new one. Robots do the building of course.
I have come through a career in electronics from an era when everything was repairable and I felt I understood it all to now I barely know how to use things let a lone how they work and the elkectronics is so tiny they can't be fixed. Indeed often only the original designer knows how they work.
Sadly motor cars have gone the same way to a large degree. I used to know every thing now I know nothing. So don't give me " If I can't fix it I don't own it" It just isn't so.. Fortunately boat is old fashioned and I can fix it. (at least most of it) olewill

 

[WilliamUK]

It needn't be that way though.

I've repaired games console controllers, MP3 players, my laptop (several times) and mobile phones.
Most of the time I was working on something I'd accepted as "broken" and making it up as I went - and yet time after time I managed to patch things up and get them going again.

If someone is capable of fixing an item, doing so should not void the warranty. That's kinda the point of the manifesto.
Elsewhere I've seen it worded "if you can't open it, you don't own it".

The main reason cars and devices are going that way is that the manufacturers make the information harder to come by.

 

[Avocet]

Yeah - I bet they didn't produce that manifesto on an old IBM PC with a 386 procesor though!

And that, of course, is the fundamental flaw with the concept. I'm speaking here as an inveterate "tinkerer". As someone who once said to his wife

"Oi, don't chuck that out! I'll fix it for you"! - then added:

"Well, at least I'll take it to bits anyway!".

I have a 22 year old car that I maintain myself. I do everything on it (and I really mean everything), but I'm under no illusions about it being safer / greener / faster / quieter / comfier than a more modern alternative - it simply isn't! One day, I'll get a crack in the windscreen or some long-obsolete part requiring multi-million pound tooling will give up the ghost, and the whole thing will be scrap.

In years gone by, we could fix our brooms / ploughs / tables / chairs indefinitely becaue we had access to the raw materials AND because the design wouldn't be improved for hundreds of years. The rate at which information can be shared nowadays means that designs evolve MUCH faster than ever before and even if I DID know how to fix my own computer, it would never have the features, speed or compatibility to interface with the other hardware / software available.

I'd be 100% behind this movement, but it will also have to accept a simpler, more minimalist set of possessions with much reduced functionality. The original pruchase price would be likely to be much higher too, because of the need to make parts (a) replaceable and (b) using minimal low-cost tooling or even by hand..

 

[PCUK]

This is why Government recycling is yet more b@ll@cks. We put our tins in a box while builders throw away huge dumpy bags, steel blow-lamp refills etc.etc and manufacturers make things that are impossible to repair to add to their profits. The manifesto is excellent but until governments take it on board with suitable manufacturing legislation it will remain a dream of times gone by.

 

[oldbilbo]

That's all very well, and I share the aspiration, but I do take issue with the Fourth Commandment - "Repair Teaches You Engineering - the best way to find out how something works is to take it apart!"

Wrong! The best way to learn is to put it back together again. Washing machines, derailleur gears, outboard engines, wife's hairdryer, brother's toys....

Ask me how I know.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Electronics just ain't fixable.

1. They contain customized parts that are not available to the public
2. They are manufactured using techniques that are not accessible to anyone without a factory full of robots. You CAN'T repair most things with a soldering iron; to attempt it stands a good chance of destroying it.
3. Understanding how they work requires a PhD (or equivalent) and access to the design software.
4. Get it even slightly wrong and you've got a brick in your hands
5. Attempting anything will void warranties - want to risk your life, your boat and your reputation on getting it right? Can you imagine what you'd say to the MAIB or the coroner if you were relying on equipment you'd fixed yourself - and it failed? Fair enough for simple mechanical stuff where quality assurance of a repair is straightforward - but electronics can't be QA'd so easily without a full test suite.

Any "repair" of electronics usually means replacing an entire module or circuit board; you might as well buy new kit with the latest facilities - it'll probably cost you less. Until we reach a plateau of development in such goods, we might as well accept it. That said, I'd certainly keep electronics in use as long as they remain functional - no point in changing it for the sake of changing it.

 

[alexrunic]

Electronics just ain't fixable.

1. They contain customized parts that are not available to the public
2. They are manufactured using techniques that are not accessible to anyone without a factory full of robots. You CAN'T repair most things with a soldering iron; to attempt it stands a good chance of destroying it.
3. Understanding how they work requires a PhD (or equivalent) and access to the design software.
4. Get it even slightly wrong and you've got a brick in your hands
5. Attempting anything will void warranties - want to risk your life, your boat and your reputation on getting it right? Can you imagine what you'd say to the MAIB or the coroner if you were relying on equipment you'd fixed yourself - and it failed? Fair enough for simple mechanical stuff where quality assurance of a repair is straightforward - but electronics can't be QA'd so easily without a full test suite.

Any "repair" of electronics usually means replacing an entire module or circuit board; you might as well buy new kit with the latest facilities - it'll probably cost you less. Until we reach a plateau of development in such goods, we might as well accept it. That said, I'd certainly keep electronics in use as long as they remain functional - no point in changing it for the sake of changing it.

That's not quite true, a mate of mine has a long established electronics repair business. He can repair almost anything. He's not partially well educated

He repairs anything from Dvd players, flat screen tv's, pc's, Games machines. He repairs a lot of specialist testing equipment for me such as tensile testers, high tech bench mounted micrometers down to a resolution of 0.1 micron, tear testers, balances and scales down to 5 decimal places of a gram.

He repairs circuit boards down to component level, he vary rarely replaces entire boards.

I agree repairs void warranty but why would you attempt a repair whiles its under warranty? Just send it back.

 

[Seajet]

Please excuse this not being directly boaty, but to add to WilliamH's comments, a chum ( another Anderson 22 owner so he must be a good bloke ! ) is a seriously good pro' mechanic, working on very expensive cars and racing jobs.

He's about 52 now, and for a while has been finding modern cars are quite a challenge to work on, requiring special tools and diagnostic kit ( which he has ).

His main bread and butter work now is replacing cam belts.

I was amazed when he had a lovely Jaguar XKR in the other day, there's not even a sump drain plug, they're so keen to make things difficult !

He reckons he'll be just about able to keep going until retirement, but the outlook is rather bleak for anyone starting in this line of work...

 

[AntarcticPilot]

That's not quite true, a mate of mine has a long established electronics repair business. He can repair almost anything. He's not partially well educated

He repairs anything from Dvd players, flat screen tv's, pc's, Games machines. He repairs a lot of specialist testing equipment for me such as tensile testers, high tech bench mounted micrometers down to a resolution of 0.1 micron, tear testers, balances and scales down to 5 decimal places of a gram.

He repairs circuit boards down to component level, he vary rarely replaces entire boards.

I agree repairs void warranty but why would you attempt a repair whiles its under warranty? Just send it back.

It's not just the warranty; it's QA of the repair. For example, a broken track on a circuit board could be because of creeping delamination of the tracks. You might fix it, but it will probably fail again as you haven't (and can't) fixed the underlying cause. In cases like that, which probably account for a lot of the failure of electronic goods in damp, vibrating environments, the only viable long-term VERIFIABLE fix is a replacement circuit board, and of course, that often costs the major part of the original cost of the item. Furthermore, what about encapsulated circuits? I'd expect a fair number of the components in marine electronics to be encapsulated, especially in hand-held devices or devices rated to be waterproof.

Finally, some of the components will be things like custom gate arrays or custom RF components, and these are not available, or only available at the whim of the manufacturers.

Your mate might well fix the goods so they work again, but I'd be reluctant to trust them in a critical application - I'd never be sure they weren't going to fail again.

Of course, if it's something simple - a solder joint on a power or signal cable, for example, then of course the kit is repairable, and I'd have a go myself; I have worked with prototype electronics in a former existence, so I can handle that kind of thing. But a lot of failures of "mature" equipment are likely to be unfixable, of if fixed, likely to fail again because the underlying problem has not been fixed.

Incidentally, how does your mate handle SMDs? I was under the impression those couldn't be replaced manually, and of course, they are now prevalent in mass-market electronics.

 

[Como]

Incidentally, how does your mate handle SMDs? I was under the impression those couldn't be replaced manually, and of course, they are now prevalent in mass-market electronics.

Its not that difficult to build and repair boards using SMD. A fine point soldering iron a flux pen and a set of binocular magnifying glasses (and a steady hand) and away you go. I have built a number of units using these and they have all worked under some very extreme conditions.

I would agree that getting hold of some of the specialised or programmed devices can be almost impossible but apart from these the majority of faults are likely to be things like electrolytic capacitors failing which are easy to replace.

 

[Avocet]

The electronics is one thing, but the myriad of injection-moulded and die-cast bits are well beyond the means of your average DIY-er!

 

[mcframe]

His main bread and butter work now is replacing cam belts.

I was amazed when he had a lovely Jaguar XKR in the other day, there's not even a sump drain plug, they're so keen to make things difficult !

Boat engines aren't known for their drain plugs either.

Cam belts are (sometimes) a trivial job - the ability to replace them is a valid alternative to buying something with the complexity of gear-driven cams (mind you, two of my bikes are pushrod, and my boat has a 1GM10 ;-)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Case-Working-Your-Hands/dp/0670918741 talks about recent Mercs that don't even have a dipstick!

I agree that SMDs and multilayer boards have reduced repair opportunities in one area of our tech, but simpler ones remain:

#1 child "broke" his scooter; #1 wife said "We'll have to buy him a new one - I'll look on Amazon". I took him down to the garage and showed him how to use a ratchet to remove the bolt†, and get mediaeval on the wheel bearings with an appropriately-sized socket. That done, we measured the ID, OD & width (intro to verniers) and hit simplybearings.co.uk on my iPad††. Four days later & £7.43 spent we tapped in new bearings††† and he was off.

Not quite my grandfather's shed with 'baccy tins full of bolts, but...

#2 child then broke /her/ scooter - this time a failed weld - I checked that a local garage could fix it (ally welding is on my todo list, but beyond my current capabilites) - they could so wife & #2 were dispatched with stripped-down scooter. Bloke welded it up (on tea-break;-), sprayed some primer on it and wouldn't accept any payment. Next day a 4 year-old gave him a home-baked pink fairy cake ;-)

I'd add a clause 6 to the manifesto: If I can't fix it, then I /might/ have an excuse to buy some more tools...
(only bodgers use AJ spanners; craftsmen use Snap-on flank-drive)

† That's a nylock son, you shouldn't reuse them - here, I've got some new ones in /this/ jar here - we'll dump the old ones in /that/ jar labeled "Old nylocks - add loctite if reused"
†† OK, I probably might admit defeat if I need to repair *that*.
††† Deadblow hammer and lump of softwood, natch.

 

[alexrunic]

It's not just the warranty; it's QA of the repair. For example, a broken track on a circuit board could be because of creeping delamination of the tracks. You might fix it, but it will probably fail again as you haven't (and can't) fixed the underlying cause. In cases like that, which probably account for a lot of the failure of electronic goods in damp, vibrating environments, the only viable long-term VERIFIABLE fix is a replacement circuit board, and of course, that often costs the major part of the original cost of the item. Furthermore, what about encapsulated circuits? I'd expect a fair number of the components in marine electronics to be encapsulated, especially in hand-held devices or devices rated to be waterproof.

Finally, some of the components will be things like custom gate arrays or custom RF components, and these are not available, or only available at the whim of the manufacturers.

Your mate might well fix the goods so they work again, but I'd be reluctant to trust them in a critical application - I'd never be sure they weren't going to fail again.

Of course, if it's something simple - a solder joint on a power or signal cable, for example, then of course the kit is repairable, and I'd have a go myself; I have worked with prototype electronics in a former existence, so I can handle that kind of thing. But a lot of failures of "mature" equipment are likely to be unfixable, of if fixed, likely to fail again because the underlying problem has not been fixed.

Incidentally, how does your mate handle SMDs? I was under the impression those couldn't be replaced manually, and of course, they are now prevalent in mass-market electronics.

Well you must have more money than 1000's of his satisfied customers. He repairs on average 10 instruments a month for me they very rarely come back. The work i give him is a small percentage of the work he dose. The work he's dose for me is all for large blue chip companies which form part of there critical quality control systems.

I would estimate his success rate on repairs, which includes being able to obtain spares to be over 95% He repairs a lot of equipment from modern 2 - 3 year old stuff to equipment from the 80's. It goes with out saying occasionally you cant obtain spares or its just not worth the expense, but those occasions are far and few between.

He manages surface mount devices quite well, he has bought an hot air or infrared device with a microscope built in for a few hundred pounds, not sure on the details as its not my area of expertise.

Typical costs of repairing household electronics £30-£100. specialist test instrumentation £50 - £500. cost to replace specialist test instrumentation 1K-20K

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Well you must have more money than 1000's of his satisfied customers. He repairs on average 10 instruments a month for me they very rarely come back. The work i give him is a small percentage of the work he dose. The work he's dose for me is all for large blue chip companies which form part of there critical quality control systems.

I would estimate his success rate on repairs, which includes being able to obtain spares to be over 95% He repairs a lot of equipment from modern 2 - 3 year old stuff to equipment from the 80's. It goes with out saying occasionally you cant obtain spares or its just not worth the expense, but those occasions are far and few between.

He manages surface mount devices quite well, he has bought an hot air or infrared device with a microscope built in for a few hundred pounds, not sure on the details as its not my area of expertise.

Typical costs of repairing household electronics £30-£100. specialist test instrumentation £50 - £500. cost to replace specialist test instrumentation 1K-20K

I'm not saying he isn't successful; no doubt he is, as your figures suggest. But none of the things you mention are single points of failure in a safety system - as, for example, a chart-plotter might be, or a VHF.

My point is that I bet he doesn't offer a warranty for the repairs, and if he does, it will be very limited. And he doesn't seem to deal with systems such as VHF where it would be very easy to make the equipment operate in illegal modes. My question is, what if you get something fixed like this, and it fails or operates incorrectly in an emergency? I think we could expect the MAIB report to say derogatory things about depending on equipment that was not maintained to the manufacturer's standards. And if you were unlucky, the coroner's narrative verdict might have something to say; it might even move things from civil to criminal courts.

As I'd imagine that chart-plotters would come in his "specialist test equipment" range, frankly, the cost of repair isn't that different from replacement or a repair by the manufacturer.

I have, in the past, created custom charts for airborne GPS systems; it was necessary as there were no commercial charts for where the kit was to be used. I was VERY VERY VERY careful to ensure that ALL users of the maps were fully aware of the limitations and deficiencies of the maps I created, and ensured that the message that the kit was to be used for situational awareness ONLY was fully understood. We didn't allow the charts to go outside our organization without a very carefully written letter explaining all of that.

I'd put repair of critical electronics by persons other than the manufacturer or a repairer authorized by the manufacturer in the same category as that; fine as long as everyone understood the limitations, and as long as no-one was depending for their life or safety on the kit behaving as the manufacturer specified.

Please don't get me wrong - I am sure the guy that you talk about does an excellent job, and that in the context of the kind of devices you mention it is perfectly OK. But marine electronics often comes in the category of safety critical devices, and that is a different ball-park.